jasonxctf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Sep 15, 2007 -> 08:15 PM) Here you go: Wins don't do anything for the franchise at the moment. Losses could. Understand? yeah i mean look at the D-Rays. All of those #1 picks have done such a great job for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 02:46 PM) Do you even realize how quickly college players who are drafted in the first few picks are making the majors these days? Guys like Braun, Lincecum, Zimmerman, Gordon, Troy T. Morrow, Verlander, etc. all made the majors within 2 years or so. point taken, however wouldn't the Sox be more successful in 08 and beyond if guys like Garland, Contreras, Floyd and Danks make some quality starts here at the end of the season. And guys like Richar, Owens and Fields continue to raise their averages? Doesn't success from current big-league prospects mean more than taking a dive to get an unknown, unreliable quantity at #1?? that being said, everyone around here was popping a stiffy at Brian Anderson's 2nd half last year. Why wouldn't they be sporting the same wood if Owens, or Fields had a similar 2nd half this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 that being said, everyone around here was popping a stiffy at Brian Anderson's 2nd half last year. Why wouldn't they be sporting the same wood if Owens, or Fields had a similar 2nd half this year? because the White Sox were a competitive team trying to win the division. Owens has been posting a mediocre line in complete garbage time with the Sox struggling to catch the Royals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) yeah i mean look at the D-Rays. All of those #1 picks have done such a great job for them. Let's see... David Price will enter next season as a top five pitching prospect without even having thrown a pitch in professional baseball. Evan Longoria just had a .900+ OPS year in AA/AAA and is considered a top prospect in the game. Jeff Niemann, after multiple injuries, looks to have put himself back on the radar screen with a decent season for Durham. At the very worst it's looking like he can be a good back-of-the-rotation pitcher. Delmon Young just turned 22 and is already hitting at a league average (ish) level. BJ Upton is going to finish the year hitting .300 with over 50 extra basehits by the end of the year. Way to bring up the worst example possible. I'll also note that four of the above five guys would be top prospects/young players in the Sox organization right now. I love it when people who have no clue what they're talking about try to make a point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) Let's see... David Price will enter next season as a top five pitching prospect without even having thrown a pitch in professional baseball. Evan Longoria just had a .900+ OPS year in AA/AAA and is considered a top prospect in the game. Jeff Niemann, after multiple injuries, looks to have put himself back on the radar screen with a decent season for Durham. At the very worst it's looking like he can be a good back-of-the-rotation pitcher. Delmon Young just turned 22 and is already hitting at a league average (ish) level. BJ Upton is going to finish the year hitting .300 with over 50 extra basehits by the end of the year. Way to bring up the worst example possible. I'll also note that four of the above five guys would be top prospects/young players in the Sox organization right now. I love it when people who have no clue what they're talking about try to make a point... Yeah, not to mention the fact that their payroll is only 30 million or thereabouts. They might have the worst bullpen and back-of-the-rotation starters in the history of baseball, but they simply don't have the bread to hire competent veteran pitchers. Their offensive core is magnificent, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Good point about college guys. Gordon did wind up having a decent year out here but he did hit below .100 most of April and May which would have probably got him sent down with a suppsed contender like the Sox. The Royals stuck with him and he's battle back to .250 or so and hit some dingers. Verdict is still out though on that top five pick. I still think the draft is a crapshoot. If we could take the best available player on a current big league roster by finishing with the worst record I'd recommend tanking and root for losing, but not a draft pick. I prefer winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(greg775 @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 07:57 PM) Good point about college guys. Gordon did wind up having a decent year out here but he did hit below .100 most of April and May which would have probably got him sent down with a suppsed contender like the Sox. The Royals stuck with him and he's battle back to .250 or so and hit some dingers. Verdict is still out though on that top five pick. I still think the draft is a crapshoot. If we could take the best available player on a current big league roster by finishing with the worst record I'd recommend tanking and root for losing, but not a draft pick. I prefer winning. I'd be willing to bet that Alex Gordon, in 4 years, will be better than anyone on the Sox roster. When a lot of us are saying we want the first pick, it's not to make the 2008 team better. It's to make the future of the organization brighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) Let's see... David Price will enter next season as a top five pitching prospect without even having thrown a pitch in professional baseball. Evan Longoria just had a .900+ OPS year in AA/AAA and is considered a top prospect in the game. Jeff Niemann, after multiple injuries, looks to have put himself back on the radar screen with a decent season for Durham. At the very worst it's looking like he can be a good back-of-the-rotation pitcher. Delmon Young just turned 22 and is already hitting at a league average (ish) level. BJ Upton is going to finish the year hitting .300 with over 50 extra basehits by the end of the year. Way to bring up the worst example possible. I'll also note that four of the above five guys would be top prospects/young players in the Sox organization right now. I love it when people who have no clue what they're talking about try to make a point... most of the garbage you pointed out above is for guys who weren't #1 picks overall. So your post is pretty worthless. Longoria was #3, Niemann was #4, Upton was #2. Anyone need a reminder about Josh Hamilton??? 1st round picks are important. Whether you pick #1, #4 or $6 isn't as big of a deal as you think it is. Especially since the Sox would never consider drafting a Boras represented player, as I'm sure most of the Top Picks will be. Devil Rays First-Round No. 1 Draft Picks Year Player Pick No. 2007 David Price, LHP 1 2006 Evan Longoria, 3B 3 2005 Wade Townsend, rhp 8 2004 Jeffrey Niemann, rhp 4 2003 Delmon Young, of 1 2002 B.J. Upton, ss 2 2001 Dewon Brazelton, rhp 3 2000 Rocco D Baldelli, cf 6 1999 Josh Hamilton, of 1 1998 NONE -- 1997 Jason Standridge, lhp 31 1996 Paul Wilder, of 29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) I love it when people who have no clue what they're talking about try to make a point... yeah, me too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfood22 Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 05:14 PM) most of the garbage you pointed out above is for guys who weren't #1 picks overall. So your post is pretty worthless. Longoria was #3, Niemann was #4, Upton was #2. Anyone need a reminder about Josh Hamilton??? 1st round picks are important. Whether you pick #1, #4 or $6 isn't as big of a deal as you think it is. Especially since the Sox would never consider drafting a Boras represented player, as I'm sure most of the Top Picks will be. His post is worthless? What is yours then? First, your point about Boras is worthless. The Sox haven't picked top 5 since 1990 when they took Alex Fernandez 4th overall. There's a difference between picking at the top of the round and picking midway through or near the bottom. The Boras factor is altogether different when you are talking about picking at the top of the draft; I'm sure Uncle Jerry understands that the 2008 draft will be an entirely different situation than previous years. He might say "don't spend don't spend a ton of money on your 25th pick" for example, but I definitely could see the Sox going over slot to sign a Boras client this early in the round because they will f***ing have to if they want to act like even a remotely serious organization. I have faith that they will do that; if not then it's time to picket the Cell. Secondly, the difference between say #4 or #5 overall and #1 overall is huge if the player you had your sights on gets taken. If not and you get who you want then it doesn't matter. And what about Hamilton? He's kicking ass with the Reds right now. I doubt that any of the scouts at his high school games saw him smoke crack, and I don't think he would have been drafted #1 overall if beforehand he had offered to sell a stolen TV to someone in the D-Rays organization for like $13. s*** happens you know, but it wasn't a bad pick. It just didn't work out for the Rays, but they could have kept him if they wanted to. Edited September 16, 2007 by Dogfood22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Here's a list of the most recent #1 overall draft picks. 1994 Paul Wilson New York Mets Pitcher (OUT OF BASEBALL) 1995 Darin Erstad Anaheim Angels Outfielder (2-Time All Star) 1996 Kris Benson Pittsburgh Pirates Pitcher (0-Time All Star) 1997 Matt Anderson Detroit Tigers Pitcher (OUT OF BASEBALL) 1998 Pat Burrell Philadelphia Phillies Third baseman (0-Time All Star) 1999 Josh Hamilton Tampa Bay Devil Rays Outfielder (0-Time All Star) 2000 Adrián González Florida Marlins First baseman (0-Time All Star) 2001 Joe Mauer Minnesota Twins Catcher (1-Time All Star) 2002 Bryan Bullington Pittsburgh Pirates Pitcher (Minimal, Poor Big League Experience) 2003 Delmon Young Tampa Bay Devil Rays Outfielder (0-Time All Star, Good Prospect/Player_ 2004 Matt Bush San Diego Padres Shortstop (Injured, No big League experience) 2005 Justin Upton Arizona Diamondbacks Shortstop (Hitting .239, too early to tell) 2006 Luke Hochevar Kansas City Royals Pitcher (Minimal Big League Experience) 2007 David Price Tampa Bay Devil Rays Pitcher (No big league experience) so of the last 13, #1 overall draft picks, we have a total of 3 All Star Games, 2 of which came from Erstad. I'm too tired and lazy to do the work, but I'd guess that there is a better performance by those picked at #2 or later than at #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Let's all step back and ask ourselves what is the cause and effect relationship between former #1 picks and the #1 pick this season? And if you did believe there was a cause and effect relationship, why not include a two of 10 best offensive players in the history of the game in Griffey and ARod? Seems to me there's ZERO f***ING CORRELATION, and you're still trying to skew your list. More choice is better, regardless of the outcome from that pick. Plus the '08 #1 pick (Alvarez) was the no-doubt-about-it concensus #1 before the college season even ended over a year before the draft. The last two times I can think of that happening was the afforementioned Griffey and Arod drafts. I'm not saying that Alvarez is sure fire HOFer (It would be irresponsible to do so), but at this point, still 9 months before the draft, there is the largest gap in value between #1 and #2 in over a decade. I don't understand how people fail to grasp this concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfood22 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 QUOTE(jasonxctf @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 06:59 PM) Here's a list of the most recent #1 overall draft picks. 1994 Paul Wilson New York Mets Pitcher (OUT OF BASEBALL) 1995 Darin Erstad Anaheim Angels Outfielder (2-Time All Star) 1996 Kris Benson Pittsburgh Pirates Pitcher (0-Time All Star) 1997 Matt Anderson Detroit Tigers Pitcher (OUT OF BASEBALL) 1998 Pat Burrell Philadelphia Phillies Third baseman (0-Time All Star) 1999 Josh Hamilton Tampa Bay Devil Rays Outfielder (0-Time All Star) 2000 Adrián González Florida Marlins First baseman (0-Time All Star) 2001 Joe Mauer Minnesota Twins Catcher (1-Time All Star) 2002 Bryan Bullington Pittsburgh Pirates Pitcher (Minimal, Poor Big League Experience) 2003 Delmon Young Tampa Bay Devil Rays Outfielder (0-Time All Star, Good Prospect/Player_ 2004 Matt Bush San Diego Padres Shortstop (Injured, No big League experience) 2005 Justin Upton Arizona Diamondbacks Shortstop (Hitting .239, too early to tell) 2006 Luke Hochevar Kansas City Royals Pitcher (Minimal Big League Experience) 2007 David Price Tampa Bay Devil Rays Pitcher (No big league experience) so of the last 13, #1 overall draft picks, we have a total of 3 All Star Games, 2 of which came from Erstad. I'm too tired and lazy to do the work, but I'd guess that there is a better performance by those picked at #2 or later than at #1. That's some weird-ass logic you use. First of all, Scott Podsednik was an All-Star. Are you somehow trying to say that Pods is better than Adrian Gonzalez because he went to an AS game? Also, you're counting players here who haven't had the time to prove themselves at the MLB level. You can't discount someone like Justin Upton just because he doesn't meet your dumb criteria. And wooooah, Mauer only made one All-Star appearance? How many players out there have made more than one AS appearance yet can't even come close to sniffing Mauer's jock? As long as Mauer stays healthy enough to have a long career, he's getting into the HOF. He's just a fantastic hitter. The only thing your list proves is that prospects in baseball aren't anywhere near as much of a sure thing as they are in other sports. You could pick any round in the draft and you'll find players who didn't make it. But so what? You let your scouts do the work and you take the best player you can. If it works out, great, if not too bad. Still, having better draft position means you have more players to choose from, meaning it is more likely that you get the player you want, meaning that puts you in a better position for success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 New day, same f***ing arguments. Yeah, debating the same thing over and over again with the exact same evidence never gets old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 16, 2007 -> 08:30 PM) New day, same f***ing arguments. Yeah, debating the same thing over and over again with the exact same evidence never gets old. When I see you as the last post in this thread I am counting on standings update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Updated standings: W L LB Tampa Bay 63 87 -- #1 Chicago Sox 64 85 2 #2 Baltimore 64 84 3 #3 Kansas City 64 84 3 Houston 65 84 3 #5 Florida 65 84 3 Pittsburgh 65 83 4 #7 Washington 66 83 4 #8 San Francisco 66 83 4 Cincinnati 68 81 6 #10 Those at the top all won and those at the bottom all lost so everything is a wee bit closer after today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You the f***in man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 I'd be willing to bet that Alex Gordon, in 4 years, will be better than anyone on the Sox roster Maybe. 126 strike outs in 503 at bats. Not good. 14 stolen bases ... pretty good. 14 hrs, 57 ribbies, good for a rookie. Yeah he might be a future all star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Updated standings: W L LB GB Tampa Bay 63 89 -- -- #1 Baltimore 64 86 3 2 #2 Chicago Sox 65 86 3 2.5 #3 Florida 65 86 3 2.5 Houston 65 86 3 2.5 Kansas City 65 85 4 3 #6 Pittsburgh 66 85 4 3.5 #7 San Francisco 67 84 5 4.5 #8 Washington 68 83 6 5.5 #9 Cincinnati 69 82 7 6.5 #10 Today's games are going to be HUGE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 What is really crazy is that no team will lose 100 games this year. Strange. I guess parody has arrived in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 02:21 PM) What is really crazy is that no team will lose 100 games this year. Strange. I guess parody has arrived in MLB. If there is one thing that I'm excited about this organization as far as losing, I'm excited that we won't lose 100 games. That's just beyond terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 No NL team should lose more than 90 games. If the cubs get hot they could really f*** the Sox as they play Florida and Pittsburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Those D'Rays are waaay too experienced in their suckage. The Sox will never catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Well, Tampa lost again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 19, 2007 -> 02:21 PM) What is really crazy is that no team will lose 100 games this year. Strange. I guess parody has arrived in MLB. Parody? What's funny?! Edited September 19, 2007 by Gregory Pratt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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