iamshack Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 07:40 PM) He also led the league in outs. I'm assuming he led the league in PA's too then. Odds are, if you do that, you're going to be pretty close to leading the league in outs no matter who you are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monomach Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 He also led the league in outs. Don't forget caught stealing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (monomach @ Dec 16, 2009 -> 01:35 AM) There are tons of options better than .330. Every time you bring up names, you bring up fast guys. The speed is irrelevant as long as it's not as slow as Konerko. -We could have signed Orlando Hudson for a slightly higher obp and way more power. -We could have signed Felipe Lopez who has been better at everything. -Even Doug Mientkiewicz as a FA would have been better. -We could have signed a middle of the order type and moved Gordon Beckham to leadoff. While that would have been suboptimal, it still would have been better.  Now as far as trade options go, there are tons who are better than Juan Pierre. For example, we could have picked up BJ Upton after his down year. Pretty much every metric agrees that he's going to rebound. Even he attributes it to his offseason shoulder surgery not being completely healed.  Even now that we have Pierre, we'd be better off just signing a slugger for the middle of the order and putting Beckham at leadoff. Pierre belongs in the 7-9 spot, no matter how fast he is (in reality, it's more WAS than IS).  U lost me at Mientkiewicz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (monomach @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 07:43 PM) Don't forget caught stealing! Â Scotty Pods was caught stealing more than pierre last yr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 06:43 PM) I'm assuming he led the league in PA's too then. Odds are, if you do that, you're going to be pretty close to leading the league in outs no matter who you are... He was 4th in PA; Rollins, Suzuki and Sizemore all finished ahead of him. Rollins and Suzuki accounted for about 50 less outs that year, Rollins only 7 less but that's what happens when you put up a mediocre OBP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I don't love this trade, and I don't hate it. They aren't paying him much and he probably will be closer to Pods 2009 numbers in 2010 than Pods will. There are obviously more moves to be made. If you remember, KW said he wanted to get the team OBP up to .350. The guys he acquired, Pierre, Teahan, Jones, and Vizquel, really don't help accomplish that. A big bat or two I believe will be coming and perhaps someone we have penciled in the White Sox 2010 line up right now will be leaving. Â I really wouldn't mind the Sox getting Vlad. Bill James projects him to hit more homers, hit for a higher avg. and higher OBP than Matsui. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I find it bizarre that with each move the Sox make, they get a little better, and yet the posts in PHT get more and more over-the-top mad. I'd think it would be the reverse. Weird. Â We do still need one more bat upgrade, at DH or elsewhere, though. And a backup C, though I think we have options in house for that which I'd be fine with. What happens with that extra bat, though, I think will give us the best picture of the offseason overall. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 06:46 PM) He was 4th in PA; Rollins, Suzuki and Sizemore all finished ahead of him. Rollins and Suzuki accounted for about 50 less outs that year, Rollins only 7 less but that's what happens when you put up a mediocre OBP. Well, put me down for acquiring Rollins, Suzuki, or Sizemore for 2 minor prospects and $8 million over two years then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (monomach @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 04:35 PM) There are tons of options better than .330. Every time you bring up names, you bring up fast guys. The speed is irrelevant as long as it's not as slow as Konerko. Â Agreed that OBP is most important, but LOL at speed being irrelevant. If that were the case, Dye would've been leading off for the past three years. Â -We could have signed Orlando Hudson for a slightly higher obp and way more power. -We could have signed Felipe Lopez who has been better at everything. Â We already have a 2B. Lopez has had injury issues and sucks defensively. Â -Even Doug Mientkiewicz as a FA would have been better. Â Another injury-prone dinosaur who isn't much of an outfielder. Â -We could have signed a middle of the order type and moved Gordon Beckham to leadoff. While that would have been suboptimal, it still would have been better. Â Yeah, it would've been better if we had the Yankees lineup. You do realize that we have a massive hole in the middle of the lineup and that Beckham's going to probably have the second highest OPS on the team this year, right? Â Now as far as trade options go, there are tons who are better than Juan Pierre. For example, we could have picked up BJ Upton after his down year. Pretty much every metric agrees that he's going to rebound. Even he attributes it to his offseason shoulder surgery not being completely healed. Â Yeah, if we gave up Floyd, Hudson, and Flowers, I'm sure that the Rays would've been more than happy to give us Upton. And even if Kenny was dumb enough to make that trade, there is no "metric" that "agrees" that Upton's going to rebound. His power numbers feel off the table in 2008 and actually worsened AFTER the surgery. Edited December 16, 2009 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monomach Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Scotty Pods was caught stealing more than pierre last yr Pods had one more CS in 162 more PAs. Â Besides, saying that someone is better than Pods is not saying all that much. Scott Podsednik could possibly be the most overrated Sox ever. Well, other than Rowand, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 06:55 PM) Well, put me down for acquiring Rollins, Suzuki, or Sizemore for 2 minor prospects and $8 million over two years then! I was just pointing out how irrelevant it is that he led the league in hits. I'm also not entirely sure what this you're getting at with this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (monomach @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 07:59 PM) Pods had one more CS in 162 more PAs. Besides, saying that someone is better than Pods is not saying all that much. Scott Podsednik could possibly be the most overrated Sox ever. Well, other than Rowand, that is.  your crazy dude scotty pods carried this team on his back for parts of last year  pierre had just as many steals as him in less action overall i think we dont lose anything by trading for him and i think it will turn out to be a good move for us overall Edited December 16, 2009 by beckham15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 06:54 PM) I find it bizarre that with each move the Sox make, they get a little better, and yet the posts in PHT get more and more over-the-top mad. I'd think it would be the reverse. Weird. We do still need one more bat upgrade, at DH or elsewhere, though. And a backup C, though I think we have options in house for that which I'd be fine with. What happens with that extra bat, though, I think will give us the best picture of the offseason overall.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (beckham15 @ Dec 16, 2009 -> 01:01 AM) your crazy dude scotty pods carried this team on his back for parts of last year  pierre had just as many steals as him in less action overall i think we dont lose anything by signing him and i think it will turn out to be a good move for us overall  Pods was great last year...he was underrated last year after being overrated during his first tenure here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2009 -> 12:54 AM) I find it bizarre that with each move the Sox make, they get a little better, and yet the posts in PHT get more and more over-the-top mad. I'd think it would be the reverse. Weird. We do still need one more bat upgrade, at DH or elsewhere, though. And a backup C, though I think we have options in house for that which I'd be fine with. What happens with that extra bat, though, I think will give us the best picture of the offseason overall.  Go back and look at the reaction to the trade before KW/Ozzie said they wanted to rotate DHs and then after. It's when our GM and Manager say we're done making moves to improve our offense is when people start to get worried (besides jphat, who just hates Rios anyways). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Given that he's probably not going to get a lot in terms of guaranteed money Orlando Hudson would have been an interesting option if he were willing to play the OF, I know he shot down the idea of playing CF full time last offseason but who knows what his mindset is a year later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevHead0881 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well, I'm looking at it from this angle. I would have been more than satisfied with Pods's performance last year at lead off had he not sucked on the basepaths and in the outfield. Â Being that Pierre is pretty much the better baserunning and fielding version (albeit slightly) of Pods, I like the deal, especially considering that he's coming cheaper than Pods's asking price. Â It's not an exciting move by any stretch of the imagination. He's at best an adequate solution to our leadoff spot. But if we can still land a legitimate DH, IMO adequate would be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 06:54 PM) I find it bizarre that with each move the Sox make, they get a little better, and yet the posts in PHT get more and more over-the-top mad. I'd think it would be the reverse. Weird. We do still need one more bat upgrade, at DH or elsewhere, though. And a backup C, though I think we have options in house for that which I'd be fine with. What happens with that extra bat, though, I think will give us the best picture of the offseason overall. I really don't know how you can say they are better now than they were on October 4. They might be, they might not be. The Sox were 7 games worse than MN. I know the popular position to take is Quentin will be healthy, Beckham will be around an entire year, Rios will be improved, Jenks will be better, the rotation is great and no one will get hurt, Teahan will shine away from KC, Putz will be the 2006-7 JJ Putz, etc. But can't Minnesota say the same thing? Mauer missed a month. Mourneau missed a month. JJ Hardy has just a good a chance to snap back as anyone the White Sox have acquired. People make a lot out of them moving out of the dome and losing their big advantage, but the dome had nothing to do with their kicking the White Sox around there in 2009, and their line-up has seemingly evolved to make them ready for the move outdoors. They have a pretty nice line-up. I would imagine the will have Slowey back as he missed half the season.  The Sox still need a lot more offense. As soon as they get at least another significant bat, I will be optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 04:57 PM) How about not wasting $8M on Pierre and instead finding someone off the scrapheap that can put up a ~.330 OBP for the minimum and play a little CF, they're out there. I'll gladly take a DH that can put up a decent OPS if it means no Kotsay or Andruw Jones, this is the AL you don't use your bench all that often and neither player has much flexibility anyway. I don't really give a s*** about either. And if Vizquel is going to be getting 250+ PA including time at DH I'm disappointed they signed him as well. Â Oh, you mean like Alejandro De Aza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) I will say for a team that supposedly has no money, shelling out $82 million for Rios, Pierre and Teahan is curious at best. I'm pretty sure I'd trade those 3 for John Lackey. Edited December 16, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 07:15 PM) I will say for a team that supposedly has no money, shelling out $82 million for Rios, Pierre and Teahan is curious at best. I'm pretty sure I'd trade those 3 for John Lackey. Â I wouldn't. I don't want Lackey for 5 years through age 36. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) I just realized how bad our middle of the order would look if we didn't get a DH.  3. Quentin 4. Konerko 5. Rios 6. Pierzynski  That's OMG bad.  Is Ozzie really willing to live with a lineup like that? Edited December 16, 2009 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 16, 2009 -> 02:19 AM) Is Ozzie really willing to live with a lineup like that? Â He has slappy leading off now. I guarantee we lead the AL in sac bunts this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 05:05 PM) Given that he's probably not going to get a lot in terms of guaranteed money Orlando Hudson would have been an interesting option if he were willing to play the OF, I know he shot down the idea of playing CF full time last offseason but who knows what his mindset is a year later? Â I was hoping that the Sox would sign O-Dog last winter. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 15, 2009 -> 07:01 PM) I was just pointing out how irrelevant it is that he led the league in hits. I'm also not entirely sure what this you're getting at with this post. I was just pointing out that your attempt to make the poster look stupid by using total outs was fairly irrelevant as well. Â What I was getting at, is that it does absolutely NOTHING to compare players we got for very little to players that are perennial all-stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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