Texsox Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 01:05 PM) That standard though cannot be wins and losses, not after $25 million in salary cuts. That standard is all about development and setting up for 2013. Wins and losses has to be part of the mix. That is one yardstick that the team is measured against. It isn't the only, or perhaps the best for this season, but it has to be in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Ever sportscaster who criticizes the Sox gets blasted. Cowley does it the most, so he gets blasted the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 How would Cowley write anything differently from what Ozzie's own personal PR firm would write if they bought their own column space in the SunTimes? Here in Chicago, people/companies have to pay to be mentioned in the newspaper or to be interview on t.v. Ozzies gets this service free of charge, and Joe has a job largely because of it. So to answer the question, the reason is because the columns are so predictable and expected anyone on here could write the same interpretation ourselves. The number of real/actual/legitimate stories broken by his access to the team has been very limited, due to his current stance. I'll go back to the same question. Where is the mainstream journalist who's out there attacking the Cubs for blowing two huge games in heartbreaking fashion AT HOME to the lowly Washington Nationals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 01:23 PM) Ever sportscaster who criticizes the Sox gets blasted. Cowley does it the most, so he gets blasted the most. It is all he does, and it is personal. It isn't professional. That is the #1 difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Who cares? Everyone understands the team is in a holding pattern. Cowley has an agenda. He's the last of a dying breed. He needs to generate interest. The Marty character is obviously a troll. Anybody who acts intentionally dense to garner attention is, by definition, a troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:57 PM) Who cares? Everyone understands the team is in a holding pattern. Cowley has an agenda. He's the last of a dying breed. He needs to generate interest. The Marty character is obviously a troll. Anybody who acts intentionally dense to garner attention is, by definition, a troll. I don't think trolls are a dying breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 02:22 PM) Wins and losses has to be part of the mix. That is one yardstick that the team is measured against. It isn't the only, or perhaps the best for this season, but it has to be in the mix. If the Sox lose 100 games this year but Vicideo, Morel, and Beckham show promise in the 2nd half, and Sale gets to 150 innings while healthy, and Peavy and Dunn and Rios are traded, that is a successful year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) None of these are Ozzie Guillen problems, they're all KW self-induced ones. One point is that KW made a lot of moves because he was in a "win now" mode and Ozzie could/should have done better with most of those teams from 2006 to 2011 than he did. The Sox were in "win now" mode and Ozzie didn't win. The other point is that Ozzie has been a quitter since things got rough during the slide in the standings in late 2005. His repeated talks of quitting alternating with his demands for extensions contributed to a lot to the dysfunctional clubhouse over the years. If Ozzie would have better handled the talent he had been given, even if the Sox were opening 2012 with the exact same roster they have now, fans wouldn't be so down on the club because they would have had much more recent success. But with that success, there would be more money available for this year's budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 03:57 PM) Who cares? Everyone understands the team is in a holding pattern. Cowley has an agenda. He's the last of a dying breed. He needs to generate interest. The Marty character is obviously a troll. Anybody who acts intentionally dense to garner attention is, by definition, a troll. What does holding pattern mean when you have the worst rated farm system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 05:04 PM) What does holding pattern mean when you have the worst rated farm system? That you need to play and develop the multiple people you do have, especially the ones on the big league squad, even if it means losses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:04 PM) What does holding pattern mean when you have the worst rated farm system? Nothing when about 25 other big league teams wouldn't have a shot to beat the Tigers. It means you have to put yourself in the best possible position for 2013, 2014 and 2015. Unless they suffer major injuries to their pitching staff, nobody in our division will come within 10 games of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) One point is that KW made a lot of moves because he was in a "win now" mode and Ozzie could/should have done better with most of those teams from 2006 to 2011 than he did. The Sox were in "win now" mode and Ozzie didn't win. This is such an important part of the equation and something I believe played a very large role in JR's dismissal of Ozzie instead of KW. The Sox rosters for nearly every season from 2006-2011 were stacked on paper. These were teams that were clear-cut favorites to win the Central and yet they came up woefully short most every year. A GMs job isn't to get the players to perform, set a solid line-up, make the correct in-game moves to promote victory....his job is to put a roster together capable of winning and I don't think there's any doubt that KW accomplished that each and every year. Ozzie turned out to be a horrible manager and, without question, was sabotaging games last season to prove his own, narcissistic version of the Sox failures would and should be pinned on KW. But just as you'd expect from someone who never finished school and, after 30 years in the US still can't speak English, he never understood that his masterplan would be so damn transparent. Good riddance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:13 PM) That you need to play and develop the multiple people you do have, especially the ones on the big league squad, even if it means losses They have no choice. Who are they going to bench these guys for if they are losing? And if they are losing it might be very well be because these guys are not the players the organization thinks they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:26 PM) This is such an important part of the equation and something I believe played a very large role in JR's dismissal of Ozzie instead of KW. The Sox rosters for nearly every season from 2006-2011 were stacked on paper. These were teams that were clear-cut favorites to win the Central and yet they came up woefully short most every year. A GMs job isn't to get the players to perform, set a solid line-up, make the correct in-game moves to promote victory....his job is to put a roster together capable of winning and I don't think there's any doubt that KW accomplished that each and every year. Ozzie turned out to be a horrible manager and, without question, was sabotaging games last season to prove his own, narcissistic version of the Sox failures would and should be pinned on KW. But just as you'd expect from someone who never finished school and, after 30 years in the US still can't speak English, he never understood that his masterplan would be so damn transparent. Good riddance. Stacked? How many Hall of Famers, All-Stars, Silver Sluggers were on those teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:23 PM) Nothing when about 25 other big league teams wouldn't have a shot to beat the Tigers. It means you have to put yourself in the best possible position for 2013, 2014 and 2015. Unless they suffer major injuries to their pitching staff, nobody in our division will come within 10 games of them. The Tigers aren't going to win 100 games. They might get to 90, but I'd bet against that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:27 PM) They have no choice. Who are they going to bench these guys for if they are losing? And if they are losing it might be very well be because these guys are not the players the organization thinks they are. Lillibridge and Fukudome, for starters. You wanted Brent to be the starting SS after your often-proposed Alexei Ramirez trade. Ramirez is our one starter, along with Dunn, who could actually make the Tigers' starting line-up. Yet somehow you prefer to start someone who's proven he can't handle the position at the major league level in both ATL and Chicago. If Mitchell continues to play like he's capable of, he could easily figure into the line-up by August or September. Thompson is two years away. Saladino could also end up replacing any of the 3 infield positions. And you're forgetting what we could acquire for Floyd, Crain or Thornton (hello, Red Sox, need some bullpen help?). If Santiago's legit, then there's no reason to pay Matt his quasi-closer salary when we already have Ohman on the payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 05:27 PM) They have no choice. Who are they going to bench these guys for if they are losing? And if they are losing it might be very well be because these guys are not the players the organization thinks they are. "The guy on the bench doing nothing" didn't stop us from benching Morel for Vizquel last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) Stacked? How many Hall of Famers, All-Stars, Silver Sluggers were on those teams? I can think of 4 hall of famers. Thome, Griffey, Vizquel, Manny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 05:36 PM) I can think of 4 hall of famers. Thome, Griffey, Vizquel, Manny. Konerko and Buehrle may not get there, but they're not incredibly far away either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) Stacked? How many Hall of Famers, All-Stars, Silver Sluggers were on those teams? Thomas, Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin in 2008, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, AJ Pierzynski, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:34 PM) Lillibridge and Fukudome, for starters. You wanted Brent to be the starting SS after your often-proposed Alexei Ramirez trade. Ramirez is our one starter, along with Dunn, who could actually make the Tigers' starting line-up. Yet somehow you prefer to start someone who's proven he can't handle the position at the major league level in both ATL and Chicago. If Mitchell continues to play like he's capable of, he could easily figure into the line-up by August or September. Thompson is two years away. Saladino could also end up replacing any of the 3 infield positions. And you're forgetting what we could acquire for Floyd, Crain or Thornton (hello, Red Sox, need some bullpen help?). If Santiago's legit, then there's no reason to pay Matt his quasi-closer salary when we already have Ohman on the payroll. You are jumping to all kinds of conclusions if you think Dunn could make the Tigers starting lineup and Jared Mitchell will be anywhere near the big leagues by September. You're also misrepresenting my thoughts on Lillibridge at SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:36 PM) I can think of 4 hall of famers. Thome, Griffey, Vizquel, Manny. Edited April 7, 2012 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:39 PM) Thomas, Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin in 2008, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Jermaine Dye, Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, AJ Pierzynski, etc. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) You are jumping to all kinds of conclusions if you think Dunn could make the Tigers starting lineup and Jared Mitchell will be anywhere near the big leagues by September. You're also misrepresenting my thoughts on Lillibridge at SS. Adam Dunn, if he plays like he did for entire career, except for one anomalous season, would be the starting DH for the Tigers. Cabrera and Fielder, while essentially DH's already, but that's not their position. Victor Martinez is out for the year, and how good he will be next season is a huge question mark. Many pitchers/positions players have shot through the Sox system very quickly, like Gordon Beckham, Brandon McCarthy and Daniel Hudson. There's no reason to believe that one year or another, we'll actually have a Mitchell or Thompson catch fire and follow a similar path. So what exactly is your position now on trading Ramirez and replacing him with Lillibridge? Who would you replace Alexei with? Surely not Escobar, Ozzie Martinez (well, unless you're in love with the name) or Saladino? What team is going to give up their "future" Alexei Ramirez for Alexei Ramirez when they could have the 20-25 year old version? You can get some nice pieces back, but you're not going to get an impact SS in all likelihood. Those trades like the Rangers pulled off for Teixiera with the Braves don't exist anymore, or the Indians for Sizemore/Phillips/Cliff Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 7, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) Stacked? How many Hall of Famers, All-Stars, Silver Sluggers were on those teams? Funny how those guys tanked once Ozzie got them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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