Chicago White Sox Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2015 -> 06:55 PM) Just to note the contradiction - Kottaras's defensive shortcomings are likely to offset his offensive gains but that's not considered for Micah. Contradiction? I don't believe Micah is anywhere as bad defensively as we saw earlier this year. I know the cool thing to do on this site is state he "was on a pace for a historically bad defensive season" despite the fact it was an incredibly small sample (therefore not enough to be predictive) and was a rookie playing on a team with expectations of competing for a playoff spot. I don't think it's much of a reach to believe the guy may have been pressing a bit in the field. Furthermore, I'm not sure why guys like Sanchez are given an adjustment period with the bat, but Micah isn't afforded one with the glove. Kottaras on the other hand has been a league average hitter in the majors who happens to play one of the weakest positions in baseball. The fact he is rotting in AAA (for a parent club with catching issues) and not even a backup for a major league club suggests he must be terrible defensively. Despite that, I said he was still worth a look, I'm just not optimistic. But obviously I'm not surprised this post came from you. Only the most recent history for a player matters and clearly Micah will be a disaster defensively for the rest of his career because of his first six weeks in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 9, 2015 -> 08:30 PM) Contradiction? I don't believe Micah is anywhere as bad defensively as we saw earlier this year. I know the cool thing to do on this site is state he "was on a pace for a historically bad defensive season" despite the fact it was an incredibly small sample (therefore not enough to be predictive) and was a rookie playing on a team with expectations of competing for a playoff spot. I don't think it's much of a reach to believe the guy may have been pressing a bit in the field. Furthermore, I'm not sure why guys like Sanchez are given an adjustment period with the bat, but Micah isn't afforded one with the glove. Kottaras on the other hand has been a league average hitter in the majors who happens to play one of the weakest positions in baseball. The fact he is rotting in AAA (for a parent club with catching issues) and not even a backup for a major league club suggests he must be terrible defensively. Despite that, I said he was still worth a look, I'm just not optimistic. But obviously I'm not surprised this post came from you. Only the most recent history for a player matters and clearly Micah will be a disaster defensively for the rest of his career because of his first six weeks in the majors. Couple points - for one, I'll say Micah was bad but you will not find me saying he was "historically" bad anywhere. I agree with you on the sample size issue there. Second, I don't expect Micah to step in and be all that great with the bat. Yes an upgrade over Sanchez, but he was still a pretty easily exposed hitter in his stint up here and I expect struggles are the norm with guys who come up from Charlotte. Therefore I think the upgrade in the bat is easily offset by the downgrade with defense since I'm not projecting him to do what he's doing at charlotte for a while. That therefore is why I made that point - because you can't assume Micah's going to come up and hit .300 in the big leagues just because he is hitting better in Charlotte now. Third...some whispers we heard a week or two ago suggested that the reason why Micah was not afforded an adjustment period with the glove is that the pitching staff, possibly Samardzija specifically, were becoming particularly frustrated with him and that was the #1 reason why the defense improving swap was made. If the pitching staff is standing strongly behind Sanchez...at the very least that will buy him extra time. And finally, thanks for the cheap shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2015 -> 07:36 PM) Couple points - for one, I'll say Micah was bad but you will not find me saying he was "historically" bad anywhere. I agree with you on the sample size issue there. Second, I don't expect Micah to step in and be all that great with the bat. Yes an upgrade over Sanchez, but he was still a pretty easily exposed hitter in his stint up here and I expect struggles are the norm with guys who come up from Charlotte. Therefore I think the upgrade in the bat is easily offset by the downgrade with defense since I'm not projecting him to do what he's doing at charlotte for a while. That therefore is why I made that point - because you can't assume Micah's going to come up and hit .300 in the big leagues just because he is hitting better in Charlotte now. Third...some whispers we heard a week or two ago suggested that the reason why Micah was not afforded an adjustment period with the glove is that the pitching staff, possibly Samardzija specifically, were becoming particularly frustrated with him and that was the #1 reason why the defense improving swap was made. If the pitching staff is standing strongly behind Sanchez...at the very least that will buy him extra time. And finally, thanks for the cheap shot. Obviously we agree on point #1. As for point #2, I don't envision Micah being anywhere close to a finished product at any point this season. I do think with some moderate improvements on both sides he'll at least be a positive WAR player, which would be a huge upgrade from what we're currently getting. And I don't doubt point #3, but once Shark is traded and the season is officially ceded, it won't really matter. Micah clearly has more long-term upside than Carlos and needs development time at the major league level now if we want to count on him in 2016 & more importantly 2017. And I apologize for the cheap shot, I misinterpreted the logic behind your initial post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Melky is surging. If Avi can hit a little and they get something out of the infield other than Jose maybe they can turn it around. I will say this: to be 5 under at this point feels like a miracle and maybe things aren't quite as bad as we thought with 90 losses. Even if they win like 80 that's an improvement. The pythag isn't there by the pitching is pretty damn good. If the offense and defense could just not be league worst bad they could get to .500 IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 God this sounds bad Who do you jettison for Kottaras? Flowers, who can't throw anyone out but is the chosen catcher of our Cy Young pitcher and it hitting .316 in July? Or Soto? Who is hitting around .260 since the beginning of June as a backup? We have lots of problems. AT THE MOMENT I don't think Kottaras over who we have solves much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 04:04 AM) Melky is surging. If Avi can hit a little and they get something out of the infield other than Jose maybe they can turn it around. I will say this: to be 5 under at this point feels like a miracle and maybe things aren't quite as bad as we thought with 90 losses. Even if they win like 80 that's an improvement. The pythag isn't there by the pitching is pretty damn good. If the offense and defense could just not be league worst bad they could get to .500 IMO. It's weird, cause that one losing stretch for a week and a half that should have gotten Robin fired at the time pretty much ended our season. It takes too much to overcome such a record in that stretch. Like I've been saying we have to have about a 12-game win streak or 22 out of 26 to have an actual shot at playoffs IMO. Sox have to avoid such stretches in the future or it's continued lack of playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 9, 2015 -> 10:44 PM) It's weird, cause that one losing stretch for a week and a half that should have gotten Robin fired at the time pretty much ended our season. It takes too much to overcome such a record in that stretch. Like I've been saying we have to have about a 12-game win streak or 22 out of 26 to have an actual shot at playoffs IMO. Sox have to avoid such stretches in the future or it's continued lack of playoffs. It doesn't even have to be that extreme. Right now the team with the 2nd wild cards is 6 games over .500. That is the Twins. For whatever reason I still can't buy into the twins and think they falter at some point.....Next up is the Tigers, who lost Miggy for awhile, and are just 3 over .500......The next 3 teams are a combined 6-24 collectively in their last 10 games.....After that the Sox are just a game behind the rest of the bunch. I wouldn't be shocked if the the 2nd wild card team wins 85 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Regarding Sanchez: Remember that he has been able to make the adjustment at every level, and has proven that he can hit at AAA. He hit .300 there last season. He had a great Spring, and tore up AAA this year when he was sent down. He has had some pretty good at bats, lately. I think that he will make the adjustment, and become at least a League average hitter, for his position. Don't discount that he is a switch hitter, and historically has been about the same from both sides of the plate. I think eventually he will be a very good #2 hitter. That is the place in the line up where he was having such good success at AAA. He seems to have a very high baseball acumen, and to me, looks like he knows what he's doing. He is still very young, and appears to be a quick study. I hope that he is given more time to learn to hit MLB pitching. And finally, his defense at 2ND really is very good. Is there anyone here who disputes that? The difference between Johnson and Sanchez, in terms of giving a player time to adjust, is that Sanchez has proven that he is a good defensive player, which is a skill that translates at all levels. Johnson has not demonstrated that he is a good defensive player, anywhere. They both hit at AAA, but you never know about translating that to the Majors. Edited July 10, 2015 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 The unfortunate part of this team having been so bad this year is the fact that with this rotation we would be more than capable of winning in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) The unfortunate part of this team having been so bad this year is the fact that with this rotation we would be more than capable of winning in October. i agree for the most part. i think the #4 and 5 pitchers will be a problem in the playoff. remember Rodon is a rookie and he would be maxing his pitch count and Danks being the 4 and 5 pitcher. but it would be fun to be in the playoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 08:20 AM) The unfortunate part of this team having been so bad this year is the fact that with this rotation we would be more than capable of winning in October. Absolute truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 08:34 AM) i agree for the most part. i think the #4 and 5 pitchers will be a problem in the playoff. remember Rodon is a rookie and he would be maxing his pitch count and Danks being the 4 and 5 pitcher. but it would be fun to be in the playoff. The 4 and 5 pitchers are rarely an issue in playoffs, its all about the top 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 02:04 PM) The 4 and 5 pitchers are rarely an issue in playoffs, its all about the top 3 very true and sir you are correct. however there are times when a team will need that 4th starter. also the team first needs to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 As of today our 4th starter would be Carlos Rodon. I'll match him up with most anyone's #4, and not feel bad about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 09:30 AM) As of today our 4th starter would be Carlos Rodon. I'll match him up with most anyone's #4, and not feel bad about it. The only worry would be how much gas he'd have left in the tank that late into the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 02:39 PM) The only worry would be how much gas he'd have left in the tank that late into the season. you, KyYlE23,and SS2k5 have all good points, my point is the pitch count the coaches have Rodon on. plus trying to stretch him out all the way to Nov. that will be a feat. fvvck, if this season didn't started like shiite, no matter who is at fault. the playoff would have been very doable. Edited July 10, 2015 by LDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jul 9, 2015 -> 08:04 PM) Melky is surging. If Avi can hit a little and they get something out of the infield other than Jose maybe they can turn it around. I will say this: to be 5 under at this point feels like a miracle and maybe things aren't quite as bad as we thought with 90 losses. Even if they win like 80 that's an improvement. The pythag isn't there by the pitching is pretty damn good. If the offense and defense could just not be league worst bad they could get to .500 IMO. I've been saying for a long time, this team isn't that far off and it isn't in this horrific shape that some posters here would want you to believe. The defense is a real problem and we need some good hitters to go with it. Will it be easy to fix (in the sense that it is a slam dunk), no, but it is totally workable and doable and I expect while we will see the club sell, we might also see us have a trade or two where we buy (using some of our prospects for young position players or getting in as a 3rd team to pick up something that fits our roster needs better). 3B and SS are two major needs in my mind and I'd also like to see us pick up a good defensive outfielder who can run and ideally hit a bit (that might mean using Garcia as bait (along with others to fill other needs) or moving LaRoche and freeing up some flexibility for Mekly / Garcia to DH a bit more. I still don't worry a lot about 2B because I've long been high on Micah and think that having him continue to develop and work some defensive kinks will be good for him to do now. Catcher is an area we could make an offensive improvement but defensively Flowers isn't horrid, so at least he has that going for him. To be frank, biggest defensive improvements would probably be warranted at 3B and corner outfield. I'd bet on Eaton and Ramirez trending closer to their career norms and thus you see natural positive defensive regression their. When it comes to Avi / Melky, if you play them in LH / DH (presuming you move LaRoche) and take care of 3B, that is replacing two positions where we have had awful defensive production that is not driven by small sample sizes. It could be Ramirez is horrible but his issues seem to be more mental then physical and even though you'd expect range limitations, you don't expect him to maintain this poor of play and I feel similarly with Eaton. I also have no problem if you find a CF that you prefer and move Eaton to LF either (either way, we need to upgrade defense without making offense any worse). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 06:20 AM) The unfortunate part of this team having been so bad this year is the fact that with this rotation we would be more than capable of winning in October. Which is why I've long said if this team were to get into the playoffs, you shorten the rotation, you shorten the bullpen, you might have a chance, but that would be dependent on at least fixing the defense and of course getting that 2nd wild card spot is still an absolute stretch. However, it is why Kenny and Hahn can't panic and can look at tweak team but key is having view on 2016 and 2017 while still potentially giving yourself a shot for this year as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 03:50 PM) I've been saying for a long time, this team isn't that far off and it isn't in this horrific shape that some posters here would want you to believe. The defense is a real problem and we need some good hitters to go with it. Will it be easy to fix (in the sense that it is a slam dunk), no, but it is totally workable and doable and I expect while we will see the club sell, we might also see us have a trade or two where we buy (using some of our prospects for young position players or getting in as a 3rd team to pick up something that fits our roster needs better). 3B and SS are two major needs in my mind and I'd also like to see us pick up a good defensive outfielder who can run and ideally hit a bit (that might mean using Garcia as bait (along with others to fill other needs) or moving LaRoche and freeing up some flexibility for Mekly / Garcia to DH a bit more. I still don't worry a lot about 2B because I've long been high on Micah and think that having him continue to develop and work some defensive kinks will be good for him to do now. Catcher is an area we could make an offensive improvement but defensively Flowers isn't horrid, so at least he has that going for him. To be frank, biggest defensive improvements would probably be warranted at 3B and corner outfield. I'd bet on Eaton and Ramirez trending closer to their career norms and thus you see natural positive defensive regression their. When it comes to Avi / Melky, if you play them in LH / DH (presuming you move LaRoche) and take care of 3B, that is replacing two positions where we have had awful defensive production that is not driven by small sample sizes. It could be Ramirez is horrible but his issues seem to be more mental then physical and even though you'd expect range limitations, you don't expect him to maintain this poor of play and I feel similarly with Eaton. I also have no problem if you find a CF that you prefer and move Eaton to LF either (either way, we need to upgrade defense without making offense any worse). with what you are saying i can understand. but if this team was hitting and scoring runs like many know that they can, the lack of defense would not have been that magnified. what ever the sox owners and fo did to the baseball gods, make sure they don't do it again. Edited July 10, 2015 by LDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 03:56 PM) Which is why I've long said if this team were to get into the playoffs, you shorten the rotation, you shorten the bullpen, you might have a chance, but that would be dependent on at least fixing the defense and of course getting that 2nd wild card spot is still an absolute stretch. However, it is why Kenny and Hahn can't panic and can look at tweak team but key is having view on 2016 and 2017 while still potentially giving yourself a shot for this year as well. i think i would disagree here. if the team shorten the rotation, i would think you will need kickarse pen to take that extra work, or the important workload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 09:50 AM) i think i would disagree here. if the team shorten the rotation, i would think you will need kickarse pen to take that extra work, or the important workload. Shorten the rotation. You pull Danks out of the rotation and you have aces and extra off days, so you can pitch your top guys in your pen more while having your best starters who in theory can also go deeper. In the playoffs, depth in the pen and rotation becomes far less significant. In fact, depending on rest, you might even have Rodon working out of the pen at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 05:07 PM) Shorten the rotation. You pull Danks out of the rotation and you have aces and extra off days, so you can pitch your top guys in your pen more while having your best starters who in theory can also go deeper. In the playoffs, depth in the pen and rotation becomes far less significant. In fact, depending on rest, you might even have Rodon working out of the pen at times. i am not disputing the logic. i am trying to think that the pen would become more important in the playoff. that is why a great pen would help out much more, esp when the team goes on the short rotation. i will still keep Rodon in the starting rotation. no team will play minimum games in the playoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 12:33 PM) i am not disputing the logic. i am trying to think that the pen would become more important in the playoff. that is why a great pen would help out much more, esp when the team goes on the short rotation. i will still keep Rodon in the starting rotation. no team will play minimum games in the playoff. They dont have to play minimum games to keep a 3 man rotation. Days off allow for the top three to stay on schedule And the pen doesnt have to be more important if Sale/Samardzija/Quintana are going 7+ innings, they just have to do their jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 10:33 AM) i am not disputing the logic. i am trying to think that the pen would become more important in the playoff. that is why a great pen would help out much more, esp when the team goes on the short rotation. i will still keep Rodon in the starting rotation. no team will play minimum games in the playoff. The importance of the pen becomes on the closer, set-up guy, and 7th inning guy. You shorten your pen to 4 really good guys and with 3-4 really good starters, including one of the 3-4 best in the game, and your odds are strong. Much different story. You could have a mediocre bullpen because your secondary pieces are bad vs. a pen where the primary pieces are bad. Defense in the post-season also becomes more important due to fewer runs typically being scored in post-season (better pitching staffs push down run production, typically, not to mention fact that you don't face teams #5 starters and the early inning guys in the pen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 10, 2015 -> 05:38 PM) They dont have to play minimum games to keep a 3 man rotation. Days off allow for the top three to stay on schedule And the pen doesnt have to be more important if Sale/Samardzija/Quintana are going 7+ innings, they just have to do their jobs excellent point. ref the top 3 going 7 innings, i guess i am chicken or have little faith. i rather not risk on that to happen. i would rather have a backup plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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