harfman77 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) Using a stop-gap free agent SP for a year or two until the younger guys are ready isn't really a bad idea. Wouldn't cost that much money, and if he performs well he becomes a trade asset at the deadline if you fall out of contention. No its not a bad idea, but I would like to use some of our internal guys and see if there is anything there. If not we can move on from them and if there is we either have a long term piece or a more valuable trade chip than a rental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 08:11 PM) No its not a bad idea, but I would like to use some of our internal guys and see if there is anything there. If not we can move on from them and if there is we either have a long term piece or a more valuable trade chip than a rental. but all of them may not be ready. i would rather have seen more of johnsons to see if he has regain his form. for me, he is still a question mark. last yr, the sox went with several question marks and failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 02:53 PM) What does that mean? Beck probably can't start. He can't strike out anyone and he hasn't improved much from the get go. If the Sox buy low on a starting pitcher they like Latos/Beachy/Iwakuma/Fister/Kennedy and make him strong again they can A.) fill a hole in the rotation successfully to help compete or B.) flip him at the deadline for prospects. When it comes to spending, I want short term signings with upside. The Sox don't have success doing that with hitters but they've proven to be exceptional on the pitching end. Exploit that. It means lets find out if Beck can start, not every pitcher has to strike a lot of guys out to be productive, if he can't we can move on. The buy low candidates you mention are just as likely to perform worse than a guy like Beck than they are to be more productive. You also have Guerra, Noes,i and Drabek waiting for another turn, give those guys a shot and either find out if they are ever going to be worthwhile again or get rid of them. If they do catch lightning in a bottle with one of those guys it costs them nothing and they have a cost controlled option to augment the rotation or be a trade chip. By the time you run through all of those guys Danish and Montas should be ready. If we are going to be bad, just be bad with what we already have and use the money in amateur free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 01:42 PM) Quintana to the Red Sox for Rafael Devers, Henry Owens and Andrew Benintendi That would be a historic steal for the Red Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 06:59 PM) Care to expand why? Devers is a top 20 prospect according to most outlets. Owens was consensus top 50 before he lost his eligibility this year. Benintendi will very likely become a top 50 prospect as he rose his stock more than any other player in the 2015 draft. I don't think the Sox want to go in the direction of prospects, but if they did, this would do it. The Red Sox would be the team that wouldn't think about it. Yeah, I know who they are. And perhaps "historic" was a poor choice of words. But if the Sox are going to trade Quintana, I expect it to be for MLB talent, such as Puig. While these are three solid prospects, I still don't think it's enough for the 7th best pitcher in baseball on such a cheap contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 30, 2015 -> 01:01 AM) Yeah, I know who they are. And perhaps "historic" was a poor choice of words. But if the Sox are going to trade Quintana, I expect it to be for MLB talent, such as Puig. While these are three solid prospects, I still don't think it's enough for the 7th best pitcher in baseball on such a cheap contract. you make a great point..... expectations of value..... what we expect and what the rest of the league expect are 2 different things. all that fans knows something big needs to happen and i am in that group. however, this is the sox owners and their frugal approach to things. yeah they will go out and spend, and if it fails, do not make a move to correct it. only once did they make such a move, and that was jeff keppinger .... but i doubt it would happen again. i just hope they really don't gut the farm on the key prospects to get the pieces needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) If 1.5 years of Samardzija (along with a half season of Hammel) got Addison Russell and Billy McKinney, then 5 years of Quintana should command the world. Aim for 2 MLB everyday players with success and 3+ years of control each or a package of 3 position player top prospects near MLB-ready and a top pitching prospect. Edited September 30, 2015 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 29, 2015 -> 06:59 PM) Care to expand why? Devers is a top 20 prospect according to most outlets. Owens was consensus top 50 before he lost his eligibility this year. Benintendi will very likely become a top 50 prospect as he rose his stock more than any other player in the 2015 draft. I don't think the Sox want to go in the direction of prospects, but if they did, this would do it. The Red Sox would be the team that wouldn't think about it. I agree with raBBIt that Boston probably doesn't make that trade. Something similar is what I would need for Quintana though. He's a stud. 8th in fWAR since 2013 and extremely cheap. He's underrated but that doesn't mean the Sox will get equal value for him which is why I'd probably keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 All I know is this better be an exciting offseason. Meaning, we better tear down or continue on this God Forsaken 3 year plan. Standing put and having to read fluff pieces about how Garcia really mentally adjusted in the offseason, and how LaRoche is ready for a bounce back season after putting in more time than he ever has will make me vomit. Make sure the speed and efense is there. Rely on the pitching/defense. Let the offense and speed manufacture runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 I just looked at combined pitcher & batting WAR numbers on fangraphs. playoff teams are generally in the 40+ WAR range. Sox are in 27th place at 23 WAR That's a lot of WAR to make up. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit around here too though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Trade Sale and Quintana. Get as many offensive prospects as possible, plus a starter or two that have top of the rotation upside, but maybe a year or two away. Bank on the collective pool of starting pitchers (the two they could get, Rodon, Fulmer, Johnson, Adams, Danish, Montas) being enough for 2017. That said, never going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 11:46 AM) Trade Sale and Quintana. Get as many offensive prospects as possible, plus a starter or two that have top of the rotation upside, but maybe a year or two away. Bank on the collective pool of starting pitchers (the two they could get, Rodon, Fulmer, Johnson, Adams, Danish, Montas) being enough for 2017. That said, never going to happen. If you trade both of those two, there is zero reason for Eaton and Abreu, or pretty much anyone else over a year of service time, to be on the roster on opening day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 12:13 PM) If you trade both of those two, there is zero reason for Eaton and Abreu, or pretty much anyone else over a year of service time, to be on the roster on opening day. I disagree. Abreu is under contract through 2019. Eaton is under control through 2021. The precious commodity in the modern game is offensive talent. The Sox have Abreu and Eaton who can be here for years to come at a high level. Hopefully Trayce will prove out to be a league average offensive player, and a plus defensive player. If the Sox trade from their position of strength (developing pitching), then I don't think they would miss Sale and Quintana for 2016, which will likely be Ventura's final losing season. And then they would be in a better position for the collective team in 2017 and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) I disagree. Abreu is under contract through 2019. Eaton is under control through 2021. The precious commodity in the modern game is offensive talent. The Sox have Abreu and Eaton who can be here for years to come at a high level. Hopefully Trayce will prove out to be a league average offensive player, and a plus defensive player. If the Sox trade from their position of strength (developing pitching), then I don't think they would miss Sale and Quintana for 2016, which will likely be Ventura's final losing season. And then they would be in a better position for the collective team in 2017 and beyond. Sale and Quintana are both signed long term as well. The problem being that by the time you repair the damage from those deals, Abreu and Eaton will be about done here, if everything goes right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 12:32 PM) Sale and Quintana are both signed long term as well. The problem being that by the time you repair the damage from those deals, Abreu and Eaton will be about done here, if everything goes right. They are signed to great deals, absolutely. That works in the Sox favor on what they could get back from other teams. Now, I don't think the Sox will do this. They'll try to craft some scenario where a 2016 team has a shot to surprise...and they'll probably fail again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 12:36 PM) Now, I don't think the Sox will do this. They'll try to craft some scenario where a 2016 team has a shot to surprise...and they'll probably fail again. Management has no other choice since we are such bad fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 12:36 PM) They are signed to great deals, absolutely. That works in the Sox favor on what they could get back from other teams. Now, I don't think the Sox will do this. They'll try to craft some scenario where a 2016 team has a shot to surprise...and they'll probably fail again. You can still plan for 2016 as a rebuilding year and craft a scenario where the team has a shot to surprise. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 05:32 PM) Sale and Quintana are both signed long term as well. The problem being that by the time you repair the damage from those deals, Abreu and Eaton will be about done here, if everything goes right. i agree with both yours and flavum post. this team has an expiration date. so if the FO will wait for their mistakes to come off the books and hopes that other prospects will be ready to step in, it will be too late. that is why i keep emphasizing that the owners needs to swallow the pill. go over their budget in a big push, the salary will fix itself as contract starts to come off the books and the prospects will start to step in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coco1997 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 11:46 AM) Trade Sale and Quintana. Get as many offensive prospects as possible, plus a starter or two that have top of the rotation upside, but maybe a year or two away. Bank on the collective pool of starting pitchers (the two they could get, Rodon, Fulmer, Johnson, Adams, Danish, Montas) being enough for 2017. That said, never going to happen. Sale & Quintana to LAD for Seager, Puig, Urias, Grandal, Guerrero and Ethier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (coco1997 @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 01:29 PM) Sale & Quintana to LAD for Seager, Puig, Urias, Grandal, Guerrero and Ethier. If you're the Dodgers why not just sign one or two of the many SP on the market this offseason instead of trading away tons of assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 06:31 PM) If you're the Dodgers why not just sign one or two of the many SP on the market this offseason instead of trading away tons of assets? excellent point. dang i wish i saved the link, but their FO mention that they wanted to get away from signing big contract, name players via free agents and want to start to get some promising young players.... they wanted to stop spending money uselessly b/c it hasn't worked as hope. however you pkg 2 sp's someone like a Q and for this discussion and example, Rodon, and avoid their main prospects like seager and urias and add some of their other players, it will get done. the dodger will have a cost control sp for quite some time, at the same time allow them to get their near ready prospect into the lineup and will allow them to let some of those high contract to come off the books. btw.... like they have to be $$$ conscience. pls remember i am using this as an example only. no offense, but on this topic, i am done. Edited October 1, 2015 by LDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 I'm about to the point where they can move Sale and Q to the Dodgers for a bunch of assets. Yet again I don't have faith really in this FO to develop anything other than pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 The 1964 sox won 99 games with tremendous pitching and hardly any hitting. Maybe that could work again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 02:02 PM) The 1964 sox won 99 games with tremendous pitching and hardly any hitting. Maybe that could work again. Guess we should sign Price then lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Oct 1, 2015 -> 02:02 PM) The 1964 sox won 99 games with tremendous pitching and hardly any hitting. Maybe that could work again. We're gonna need to focus on defense first than before hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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