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COVID Thread Part Deux

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ugh. Just so someone says this, the scientific evidence over the last few months has come down hard on the side that this was a zoonotic virus, circulating in some population of animals, that spilled over to humans and went wild after an early super-spreader event at the Wuhan animal market last December. There's case tracing, there's testing of family members of people who work at the lab, and there is some extremely powerful DNA evidence on the side of this. While the Chinese government remains uncooperative for reasons that are unknown, and for that reason the hypothesis of something else deserved testing, right now the evidence is strongly on the side of "virus that was out there in some animal population, yet to be identified".

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42 minutes ago, greg775 said:

3. Maybe we need a viable third party in government. There's talk Yang is starting one. Like Bill Maher said last night we talk politics too much (watch his great interview on Kimmel). We're too engrossed with politics now (it started when Trump came on the scene sparking unabashed anger from the Behars of the world and turned into derangement almost) and we need to stop talking politics 24/7 or close to 24/7 when we're not looking into what's happening with our fave sports teams. I really like Maher at times.

I've stopped listening to Bill Maher a long time ago. 

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14 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ok so let's break that down for a second, they don't trust China, who Trump blamed immediately.  Now we know it's from China, now we don't trust Fauci and Biden and the US government, and China.  Ok great so this is validation, correct?  How does this work?   

It's pretty simple. If they lied, they lied. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day as their accusations would be validated.

If it shown that people were lying about the origin of the virus, it will sow distrust in the whole system. As others have said, I don't think the origin story will change, but if it did it will give the radicals more ammunition for their distrust.

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3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It's pretty simple. If they lied, they lied. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day as their accusations would be validated.

If it shown that people were lying about the origin of the virus, it will sow distrust in the whole system. As others have said, I don't think the origin story will change, but if it did it will give the radicals more ammunition for their distrust.

I just don't think that it changes a damn thing in the amount of distrust there.  Those people are dug in on that conspiracy, the blame that is somehow validated doesn't make them do anything different.  There are the people that believe in the science of it and the people that believe that they know better than the science.

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1 hour ago, greg775 said:

3. Maybe we need a viable third party in government. There's talk Yang is starting one. Like Bill Maher said last night we talk politics too much (watch his great interview on Kimmel). We're too engrossed with politics now (it started when Trump came on the scene sparking unabashed anger from the Behars of the world and turned into derangement almost) and we need to stop talking politics 24/7 or close to 24/7 when we're not looking into what's happening with our fave sports teams. I really like Maher at times.

We need a 3rd party, but Yang sure isn't the one to start it. We need people who are between the two parties, not farther left or right than them.

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Just now, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

We need a 3rd party, but Yang sure isn't the one to start it. We need people who are between the two parties, not farther left or right than them.

It would take sooooooo much for a third party to overcome the establishment.  I really don't think I will see that in my lifetime

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Just now, Kyyle23 said:

It would take sooooooo much for a third party to overcome the establishment.  I really don't think I will see that in my lifetime

Oh I agree it's a near impossibility, but that doesn't mean that we don't need it.

If the 30 most moderate Republican Senators and the 30 most moderate Democratic Senators all got together and decided that they were going to get stuff done, they could accomplish a lot.

The Democratic party has control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency and they can't get anything done because their most moderate and most progressive members are so far apart politically they can't agree on anything. At that point the party as it exists no longer works.

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23 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I just don't think that it changes a damn thing in the amount of distrust there.  Those people are dug in on that conspiracy, the blame that is somehow validated doesn't make them do anything different.  There are the people that believe in the science of it and the people that believe that they know better than the science.

Ok. I disagree that proof of the establishment lying to the world wouldn't change anything.

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So this happened today.

 

Let's see, important details - they already previously authorized boosters for immune compromised individuals because they know we're a freaking mess, so that wasn't this group.

The fundamental data here is that the first 2 shots in you normal people produce a set of antibodies that seem to fade over 6-12 months, and those antibodies are the direct shield against infection. However, the protection against severe disease appears essentially unaffected - basically you can get it in your nose, you can get sick, but even if the antibodies decrease over time, the vaccine has trained the immune system well enough to target the virus that it kills off the virus before the virus can kill you, by making more antibodies and such. 

A booster shot has been tested in Israel and it has been shown to massively increase the body's antibody response, which could well restore a strong immunity against infection. However, there are problems - first, that would take shots away from countries lower on the list. Second, and this seems to have been a bigger problem for the FDA - Israel's data is almost entirely in an elderly population, so Pfizer was asking the FDA to approve something for an age group that hasn't been tested yet. So, if you're 65 or older, or otherwise at high risk, they've recommended it, but they won't go outside the data to approve it for the general population, which I have a hard time arguing against. Tell Pfizer to come back with more complete data to demonstrate safety and usefulness in a full population - they haven't demonstrated that booster shots to everyone will affect the course of the pandemic based on this data.

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3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

There are the people that believe in the science of it and the people that believe that they know better than the science.

What about a third group that includes me? I don't trust Fauci. I don't trust politicians Republican or Democrat now, although if prodded I will admit I currently am a fan of two three elected government officials, that's it. I won't name them since it will cause an argument.

And yet I got the vaccine twice and will get the booster. So what group are people like me in? I don't believe in the science of it currently. And I cerainly don't think I know better than the science.

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3 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I've stopped listening to Bill Maher a long time ago. 

I think he cares and he's trying. Some of his monologues on the woke nonsense are outstanding. And I do think his heart is in the right place trying to save America from itself. He's proving you can be upset at both sides, the far left and the radical right. He is a liberal; I am conservative yet I like him much. Howard is way liberal; I am conservative yet I love Howard as well.

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1 hour ago, greg775 said:

What about a third group that includes me? I don't trust Fauci. I don't trust politicians Republican or Democrat now, although if prodded I will admit I currently am a fan of two three elected government officials, that's it. I won't name them since it will cause an argument.

And yet I got the vaccine twice and will get the booster. So what group are people like me in? I don't believe in the science of it currently. And I cerainly don't think I know better than the science.

I dunno, perpetually confused about everything?   You decide.  Or don't.  I don't care.

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3 hours ago, greg775 said:

What about a third group that includes me? I don't trust Fauci. I don't trust politicians Republican or Democrat now, although if prodded I will admit I currently am a fan of two three elected government officials, that's it. I won't name them since it will cause an argument.

And yet I got the vaccine twice and will get the booster. So what group are people like me in? I don't believe in the science of it currently. And I cerainly don't think I know better than the science.

You say that, but your talking points say otherwise. 

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19 hours ago, greg775 said:

I think it matters where it originated because if it's in a lab, it points out the place where lies began regarding COVID. A lot of the unvacced don't trust anybody and it starts with the first lie (if there is one re. origin).

2. No, but if politics were never involved maybe doctors and health care providers and scientists who the anti vaccers don't trust (Fauci) might have been more believable. Trump, Biden, Kamala, Fauci all have said some pretty despicable things through the last 2 years.

3. Maybe we need a viable third party in government. There's talk Yang is starting one. Like Bill Maher said last night we talk politics too much (watch his great interview on Kimmel). We're too engrossed with politics now (it started when Trump came on the scene sparking unabashed anger from the Behars of the world and turned into derangement almost) and we need to stop talking politics 24/7 or close to 24/7 when we're not looking into what's happening with our fave sports teams. I really like Maher at times.

So if it were out of a Wuhan lab, do they go after Fauci like Paul did for gain of function research? Or do they blame China? Or the Democrats?

I’m not sure who anti-vaxxers actually trust, unless it’s someone on social media. I thought that Fox News viewers would have trusted Francis Collins but I haven’t heard much praise for him, just bitching about Fauci.

One of my passions in life is politics although I am more about the news, history and policy than I am culture wars, sharing memes to flame the other side on Facebook or ripping others to shreds. So I talk about it a lot, but it’s not like what Maher probably means. Yang’s third party probably isn’t viable. There’s probably several parties, like Biden Democrats, progressive Democrats, moderate republicans and the far right freedom caucus republicans.

19 hours ago, greg775 said:

I am a vaxxer not anti vaxxer, so I'm trying to speak for anti-vaxxers here. If an anti vaxxer finds out it started in a wuhan lab, that would show the anti vaxxers there have been lies from the beginning. It would tell them, "I knew it. I trust none of those liars. This vax could harm me (fill in conspiracy theories)." The first lie would give them ammo that the whole issue is partisan lying.

Then it goes back to my question, “Who do you trust? You have to have trusted someone in your life when it came to decisions. What sources do you trust? How much evidence is enough for you to prove your claims?”

18 hours ago, greg775 said:

Does this bother anybody else? Yeah let's vote on whether boosters are needed. How bout some unequivocal proof and 100 percent consensus on things once in a while? So if it's 55-45 in favor do we all rush to the front of the line?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-covid-booster-shot-vote/

I wouldn’t say I’m bothered but I do hope that boosters become available to more people at the end of this year or next. I’m more concerned with the children getting vaccinated.

18 hours ago, ptatc said:

It's pretty simple. If they lied, they lied. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day as their accusations would be validated.

If it shown that people were lying about the origin of the virus, it will sow distrust in the whole system. As others have said, I don't think the origin story will change, but if it did it will give the radicals more ammunition for their distrust.

True, but even if China lied, who would people blame?

18 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

We need a 3rd party, but Yang sure isn't the one to start it. We need people who are between the two parties, not farther left or right than them.

Yep. Two moderate factions fed up with the left and right wings. The Problem Solvers caucus is a good example as are some moderates who voted on infrastructure. 

18 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Oh I agree it's a near impossibility, but that doesn't mean that we don't need it.

If the 30 most moderate Republican Senators and the 30 most moderate Democratic Senators all got together and decided that they were going to get stuff done, they could accomplish a lot.

The Democratic party has control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency and they can't get anything done because their most moderate and most progressive members are so far apart politically they can't agree on anything. At that point the party as it exists no longer works.

Voters should be very upset if the congress doesn’t pass the easy win in the bipartisan infrastructure bill and instead get hung up over reconciliation bills that need to be negotiated down to pass through the senate. It isn’t just progressives but also moderates who have to figure this out, although I would point out to progressives that they need to understand A. The Senate math with Sinema, Manchin and Tester and B. How if they get nothing done and torpedo the legislation, they will lose in competitive districts and find themselves in the minority. In divided government they need to just get something done. Half a loaf of bread is sometimes better than the full loaf.

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On 9/17/2021 at 7:25 AM, Kyyle23 said:

Do you believe I should be able to ask a doctor in a Covid unit to administer cocaine to me in order to treat Covid?  Should I have that control?

I believe my point is you should be able to tell the doctor to NOT inject you with cocaine. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 7:45 AM, southsider2k5 said:

Cool. Now if your neighbor decides that he wants to fill his yard with coal ash, or better yet, nuclear waste?

My point is you should be able to say no if your neighbor wants to dump coal ash in your yard. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 9:48 AM, Balta1701 said:

Yes.

But if you are doing something that poses a danger to the people around you, then the rest of us have an equal right to block your access to places of work, schools, and places of business so that you cannot pose that danger to the population.

Agree 100%. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 10:15 AM, Soxbadger said:

Why cant I put LSD, MDMA, Cocaine etc in my body? Do I really have control of my life?

The argument against vaccines is entirely hypocritical if the anti-vaxxers dont believe I have the right to do whatever damn drugs I feel like. Unlike covid, my cocaine binge isnt hurting anyone but myself. In most states you cant even buy marijuana.

(Edit)

Also my employer is allowed to restrict alcohol/drug use while I am working. Why should my employer not be able to also require vaccines?

It’s an interesting point but Im not ready to go from being able to say no to something and being able to say yes to anything. I see two different points there. 

If I'm understanding your point since the government does not allow you to have cocaine they should be allowed to force  anything into your body? 
 

Employers should be allowed to require vaccines. You have the right to not wear a hardhat but you don't have the right to not wear one where reasonably required for your job. Seems similar to vaccinations. 

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13 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It’s an interesting point but Im not ready to go from being able to say no to something and being able to say yes to anything. I see two different points there. 

If I'm understanding your point since the government does not allow you to have cocaine they should be allowed to force  anything into your body? 
 

Employers should be allowed to require vaccines. You have the right to have a beer but not at work if it affects the safety of yourself or those around you. Seems similar to vaccinations. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Agree 100%. 

To piggy back off of this, I also would say to someone who is all about individual choices that there are children who do not have a choice in getting the vaccine yet. What are parents supposed to do to protect them? Do we have an obligation as a society to consider other people who can’t get vaccinated? They don’t have to agree but I’d like to know their response.

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5 minutes ago, The Beast said:

To piggy back off of this, I also would say to someone who is all about individual choices that there are children who do not have a choice in getting the vaccine yet. What are parents supposed to do to protect them? Do we have an obligation as a society to consider other people who can’t get vaccinated? They don’t have to agree but I’d like to know their response.

I am certain we have a moral obligation to protect them. 

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24 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If I'm understanding your point since the government does not allow you to have cocaine they should be allowed to force  anything into your body?  

“Questions a person named “Tex” should not say in front of the women in their life.”

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