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COVID Thread Part Deux

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4 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

 

in general republicans are going to lean towards individual freedoms and rights and choices. i dont think a lot of those people are thinking of this as "i dont believe science" - more I'm not going to listen to the government. 

 

Yeah I always associate Republicans with pro-drugs, pro-prostitution, pro-gambling, pro-drinking,  pro-abortion, pro-same sex marriage, pro-respecting trans rights...

Cant wait to go to Texas and assert all my "individual freedoms." Im sure they will absolutely be okay with me smoking some weed while I bet on the Cowboys as my girlfriend has as an abortion at 8 weeks. 

Was that supposed to be in green?

 

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1 hour ago, Soxbadger said:

 

Yeah I always associate Republicans with pro-drugs, pro-prostitution, pro-gambling, pro-drinking,  pro-abortion, pro-same sex marriage, pro-respecting trans rights...

Cant wait to go to Texas and assert all my "individual freedoms." Im sure they will absolutely be okay with me smoking some weed while I bet on the Cowboys as my girlfriend has as an abortion at 8 weeks. 

Was that supposed to be in green?

 

Pro-my freedom, not yours.

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33 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

 

Yeah I always associate Republicans with pro-drugs, pro-prostitution, pro-gambling, pro-drinking,  pro-abortion, pro-same sex marriage, pro-respecting trans rights...

Cant wait to go to Texas and assert all my "individual freedoms." Im sure they will absolutely be okay with me smoking some weed while I bet on the Cowboys as my girlfriend has as an abortion at 8 weeks. 

Was that supposed to be in green?

 

a - not a republican

b - not a democrat

c - maybe you should stop type casting people

c - they're both full of shit

d - free healthcare for all. healthcare is a right! but only if you're vaccinated. if not vaccinated then you can rot and die, don't take my hospital beds. Was that supposed to be in green? My body, my choice. But vaccines should be mandated. forced. 

e - like i said, both sides are full of shit. the hypocrisy runs deep not just politically but across the board individually. people will do anything to justify their sides. 

I am not tribal to any team. I am an independent thinker. this whole thing is a lot more grey than black or white. This board is a big echo chamber of people who don't care to think and just parrot speaking points they hear on TV without applying critical thinking to the process. Guess what? Covid can be a bad terrible thing, and also overblown. You can care about people, but also understand cost benefit analysis of a small minority of mostly immune compromised, aged people dying against the response, which will have lasting, long-term effects on this generation and future generations. It doesn't make you heartless, it makes you reasoned. 

Want to rock your mind. I am pro choice, I think a whole shit load of guns should be banned. I am pro do whatever the hell you want to do in your personal life. Pretend you're a cat if you want. Dress up and wear ears and drink milk from a bowl, I don't give a shit. Just don't come looking for handouts. Take personal accountability for your actions. take a vaccine, don't take a vaccine. Whatever. I am for the government staying the hell out of my business. I am pro-police, anti war. I think we shouldn't be in nearly as many peoples business across the globe. I'll go as far as to say if we weren't from the USA we'd all hate us. We go around bullying the world trying to make them into us. I think we're full of lazy, fat, biggoted, entitled, undereducated assholes. I'd bring in immigrants by the boat load. they're hungry, accountable and drive new ideas, culture and business. I am anti religion - it's another layer to hide behind to justify and make people feel better about themselves. but go for hte gold if you want to apply religion as your purpose in life, not my business to get involved in. In fact, the whole world would be a lot better if we just taught all religions and beliefs. St. Pats in the West Loop does this. Teach the background of these religions and the history. It's about understanding. Go worship the God, the sun, or the White sox. I don't really care, it's not for me, but can be for you if you want. I think that big banks and money are the ultimate evil. Money rots the world. People think we were in Afghanistan to try and bring democracy? child please. We're there about oil and poppy fields. They serve up distractions and we eat them with fries. I think that private equity, consolidation and cheap money is rotting the very root of what is good. It's taking away jobs, its funneling money to a few, and leaving the world worse off. I think cheap goods from china are a trojan horse. They're doing it right. we're off fighting 20 year pointless wars, they're over there building roads and hospitals in africa and the middle east in order to have rights and control to rare earth minerals and metals. i think donald trump is an evil egotisitcal old man who is not only corrupt, but possibly the worst person to run a coutntry. god help us if he runs and wins again. i think joe biden is also an ego maniac who has had his best days behind him. i was an andrew yang guy. money should be going back to the poorest. new ideas. UBI, new police training, etc. I think covid, when compared to the possible steps towards some sort of totalitarian society is not worth it.  That's not crazy, look at Australia. The endless money printing is going to further divide this country. take youre $1,400 checks and think you're getting something. reality is that was all pissed away in one year of inflation. now everything costs more and the people at the bottom make less. homes are less affordable for a whole subset of people. food is more expensive. We're creating a class society and all in the name of covid. Nothing good comes from divide. I am anti big Pharma. I am anti big corporations. the fact that this board has a 2 year running thread on covid, but nobody fucking cares about opioids, the obese culture we live in, the poor education system, the ridiculous college tuitions, etc. is insane. if people put as much time into those topics we'd be much better off. But unfortunately that's not the case. it's always boiled down to simplicity. simple points for simple people. RED. BLUE. CUBS. SOX. VACCINATED. UNVACCINATED. GOOD. BAD. im sure the next response to this will just be highlighting and picking this apart, that's what this board is about. picking people apart. 

I say lets do rapid testing or about natural immunity ... and all of a sudden that's controversial. guess what guys? I'm on your team. i'm vaccinated. im just not a sheep. 

Posted in the Washington Post yesterday. So you either are going to trust a study of "hundreds" or "tens of thousands". I'm sure when this data comes out though that it will be swept under the rug. It doesn't fit the narrative. the article is pretty meh. doesn't offer much in the way of details ... so we'll see what it actually says when it's released. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/vaccines-versus-covid-19-the-great-immunity-debate/2021/09/07/b55f2aca-0fe4-11ec-baca-86b144fc8a2d_story.html

While not officially published, a scientific paper announcing the new data has impressed the medical community because it’s based on a study of tens of thousands of people conducted this summer when the delta variant was dominant, and because the researchers measured what matters most: whether people got sick or were hospitalized, not just whether their antibodies changed or some tiny amount of virus was detected in their noses.

The new findings might force a rethinking of the current U.S. policy of recommending full vaccination to people who’ve already had a documented case of Covid-19. And, while it still makes sense to encourage anyone who hasn’t had the virus to get the shots, doctors might want to reconsider whether the Moderna version would be a better bet. Several studies, including one out of the Mayo Clinic, show it might offer more durable protection against the delta variant.

 

 

 

 

oh, and again, i'm vaccinated. figure that one out. pro-vaccination, but considering other angles ... weird isn't it? welcome to my tribe, population ONE. 

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48 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

a - not a republican

b - not a democrat

c - maybe you should stop type casting people

c - they're both full of shit

d - free healthcare for all. healthcare is a right! but only if you're vaccinated. if not vaccinated then you can rot and die, don't take my hospital beds. Was that supposed to be in green? My body, my choice. But vaccines should be mandated. forced. 

e - like i said, both sides are full of shit. the hypocrisy runs deep not just politically but across the board individually. people will do anything to justify their sides. 

I am not tribal to any team. I am an independent thinker. this whole thing is a lot more grey than black or white. This board is a big echo chamber of people who don't care to think and just parrot speaking points they hear on TV without applying critical thinking to the process. Guess what? Covid can be a bad terrible thing, and also overblown. You can care about people, but also understand cost benefit analysis of a small minority of mostly immune compromised, aged people dying against the response, which will have lasting, long-term effects on this generation and future generations. It doesn't make you heartless, it makes you reasoned. 

Want to rock your mind. I am pro choice, I think a whole shit load of guns should be banned. I am pro do whatever the hell you want to do in your personal life. Pretend you're a cat if you want. Dress up and wear ears and drink milk from a bowl, I don't give a shit. Just don't come looking for handouts. Take personal accountability for your actions. take a vaccine, don't take a vaccine. Whatever. I am for the government staying the hell out of my business. I am pro-police, anti war. I think we shouldn't be in nearly as many peoples business across the globe. I'll go as far as to say if we weren't from the USA we'd all hate us. We go around bullying the world trying to make them into us. I think we're full of lazy, fat, biggoted, entitled, undereducated assholes. I'd bring in immigrants by the boat load. they're hungry, accountable and drive new ideas, culture and business. I am anti religion - it's another layer to hide behind to justify and make people feel better about themselves. but go for hte gold if you want to apply religion as your purpose in life, not my business to get involved in. In fact, the whole world would be a lot better if we just taught all religions and beliefs. St. Pats in the West Loop does this. Teach the background of these religions and the history. It's about understanding. Go worship the God, the sun, or the White sox. I don't really care, it's not for me, but can be for you if you want. I think that big banks and money are the ultimate evil. Money rots the world. People think we were in Afghanistan to try and bring democracy? child please. We're there about oil and poppy fields. They serve up distractions and we eat them with fries. I think that private equity, consolidation and cheap money is rotting the very root of what is good. It's taking away jobs, its funneling money to a few, and leaving the world worse off. I think cheap goods from china are a trojan horse. They're doing it right. we're off fighting 20 year pointless wars, they're over there building roads and hospitals in africa and the middle east in order to have rights and control to rare earth minerals and metals. i think donald trump is an evil egotisitcal old man who is not only corrupt, but possibly the worst person to run a coutntry. god help us if he runs and wins again. i think joe biden is also an ego maniac who has had his best days behind him. i was an andrew yang guy. money should be going back to the poorest. new ideas. UBI, new police training, etc. I think covid, when compared to the possible steps towards some sort of totalitarian society is not worth it.  That's not crazy, look at Australia. The endless money printing is going to further divide this country. take youre $1,400 checks and think you're getting something. reality is that was all pissed away in one year of inflation. now everything costs more and the people at the bottom make less. homes are less affordable for a whole subset of people. food is more expensive. We're creating a class society and all in the name of covid. Nothing good comes from divide. I am anti big Pharma. I am anti big corporations. the fact that this board has a 2 year running thread on covid, but nobody fucking cares about opioids, the obese culture we live in, the poor education system, the ridiculous college tuitions, etc. is insane. if people put as much time into those topics we'd be much better off. But unfortunately that's not the case. it's always boiled down to simplicity. simple points for simple people. RED. BLUE. CUBS. SOX. VACCINATED. UNVACCINATED. GOOD. BAD. im sure the next response to this will just be highlighting and picking this apart, that's what this board is about. picking people apart. 

I say lets do rapid testing or about natural immunity ... and all of a sudden that's controversial. guess what guys? I'm on your team. i'm vaccinated. im just not a sheep. 

Posted in the Washington Post yesterday. So you either are going to trust a study of "hundreds" or "tens of thousands". I'm sure when this data comes out though that it will be swept under the rug. It doesn't fit the narrative. the article is pretty meh. doesn't offer much in the way of details ... so we'll see what it actually says when it's released. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/vaccines-versus-covid-19-the-great-immunity-debate/2021/09/07/b55f2aca-0fe4-11ec-baca-86b144fc8a2d_story.html

While not officially published, a scientific paper announcing the new data has impressed the medical community because it’s based on a study of tens of thousands of people conducted this summer when the delta variant was dominant, and because the researchers measured what matters most: whether people got sick or were hospitalized, not just whether their antibodies changed or some tiny amount of virus was detected in their noses.

The new findings might force a rethinking of the current U.S. policy of recommending full vaccination to people who’ve already had a documented case of Covid-19. And, while it still makes sense to encourage anyone who hasn’t had the virus to get the shots, doctors might want to reconsider whether the Moderna version would be a better bet. Several studies, including one out of the Mayo Clinic, show it might offer more durable protection against the delta variant.

 

 

 

 

oh, and again, i'm vaccinated. figure that one out. pro-vaccination, but considering other angles ... weird isn't it? welcome to my tribe, population ONE. 

I never said you were a Republican, I just found it odd that you would think they "lean towards individual freedoms" when Im not sure that is supported by fact. I just think that type of generalization really isnt helpful in this discussion because lets be honest, if you think people shouldnt be able smoke marijuana in their home, you cant really hang your hat on the reason you are against vaccines/masks is because "individual freedoms are so important."

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yah republicans are ridiculous. they fall in line behind politics and religion. they're all a mask. most people cant defend their positions and most are hollow and fed to them by the team they want to be on. democrats are not all that different either. I'd probably say i lean more democrat, but i think they're lost in their policies of trying to help the ones who need it the most. 

the flip side? I'm full of shit too. i have contradictions. we all do. I try to limit them. overall i'm for letting people live their lives. i think an overreach like this, or like the news today that the government is going to mandate employers with over 100 employees that they have to have their people vaccinated, or tested weekly, or take a $14k fine per week? Really? 

Imagine owning a family business that you grew and now you have to pass that along and deal with all that comes from it. Why? because the government is full of a bunch of pussies that instead of mandating it themselves, push it onto someone else to mandate, and then fine them if they dont. it's a b**** move. This type of move is asinine at best. Forcing 100,000,000 americans to take a vaccine won't end well. Everybody has had more than opportunity, more than enough shaming to make their decision. those 100mm? good luck. (side note, big pharma is gonna love this ... as long as they can continue to sell covid, they have a risk free annuity of boosters every year, go grab that stock)

I still go back to this is all for Covid .... for Covid! Imagine a disease that comes along that is more powerful. that is more deadly. Imagine what they're going to do to in the name of  "global warming". it's all framing and i think this opens a big can of worms towards a very dangerous path. and not to change subject, that's not anti global warming ... i think it's a bunch of contradictions. they create a hamster wheel economy of cheap money and  go, go, go which leads to more and more consumption which drives more and more pollution all in the name of trying to keep the throne of the top power. Fix the money, fix the problems.   i think that nuclear is a very safe, cheap, effective clean energy source that has been tossed aside. I think that renewables while good, are not necessarily reliable (see germany). they are going to lead very expensive, unreliable energy into the future and those who will end up paying the most? The bottom half again?  they throw away to the side the mining needed to make these solar panels. They for sure ignore the labor used to dig up these components, etc. We all need energy, but when prices go up, the bottom half will get hit hardest again.

The ideas? I have no problem with, the execution? i do have a problem with. vaccines are good. there's no doubt they're helpful, but acting like they're the end all be all is questionable at best. 

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6 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

yah republicans are ridiculous. they fall in line behind politics and religion. they're all a mask. most people cant defend their positions and most are hollow and fed to them by the team they want to be on. democrats are not all that different either. I'd probably say i lean more democrat, but i think they're lost in their policies of trying to help the ones who need it the most. 

the flip side? I'm full of shit too. i have contradictions. we all do. I try to limit them. overall i'm for letting people live their lives. i think an overreach like this, or like the news today that the government is going to mandate employers with over 100 employees that they have to have their people vaccinated, or tested weekly, or take a $14k fine per week? Really? 

Imagine owning a family business that you grew and now you have to pass that along and deal with all that comes from it. Why? because the government is full of a bunch of pussies that instead of mandating it themselves, push it onto someone else to mandate, and then fine them if they dont. it's a b**** move. This type of move is asinine at best. Forcing 100,000,000 americans to take a vaccine won't end well. Everybody has had more than opportunity, more than enough shaming to make their decision. those 100mm? good luck. (side note, big pharma is gonna love this ... as long as they can continue to sell covid, they have a risk free annuity of boosters every year, go grab that stock)

I still go back to this is all for Covid .... for Covid! Imagine a disease that comes along that is more powerful. that is more deadly. Imagine what they're going to do to in the name of  "global warming". it's all framing and i think this opens a big can of worms towards a very dangerous path. and not to change subject, that's not anti global warming ... i think it's a bunch of contradictions. they create a hamster wheel economy of cheap money and  go, go, go which leads to more and more consumption which drives more and more pollution all in the name of trying to keep the throne of the top power. Fix the money, fix the problems.   i think that nuclear is a very safe, cheap, effective clean energy source that has been tossed aside. I think that renewables while good, are not necessarily reliable (see germany). they are going to lead very expensive, unreliable energy into the future and those who will end up paying the most? The bottom half again?  they throw away to the side the mining needed to make these solar panels. They for sure ignore the labor used to dig up these components, etc. We all need energy, but when prices go up, the bottom half will get hit hardest again.

The ideas? I have no problem with, the execution? i do have a problem with. vaccines are good. there's no doubt they're helpful, but acting like they're the end all be all is questionable at best. 

You aren't offering any solutions regarding COVID. It's easy to say what you don't like, but what do you think should be done? 

Here would be my question based on what I believe your stance is. The government hasn't mandated every American needs to get the vaccine. But they have mandated all government employees must get it. It's not a right to have a job (as you know), but a privilege. In this case, getting the COVID vaccine is now part of the job requirement. Don't like it, don't have to take the job. 

I know you're anti-war based only your above post, but as I mentioned a few pages back......since before I was born, there are over a dozen vaccines every enlisted person gets within the military. It's been a "mandate" for years. Unless I've not been paying attention, I've never seen a lot of backlash over that. No one is forcing anyone to serve, but if you choose to take that path, getting vaccinated isn't a choice. It's a mandate. 

I guess my point is I don't know why so many are up in arms about their "freedoms" and "mandates" when these things have existed for decades. If you don't want the COVID vaccine, right now that's your choice.....but there are going to be things you aren't able to do because of that choice. And the point is that same scenario has existed for decades, but no one seemed to give a shit until now. 

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I'd handle it with no mandates. no governmental vaccine passports. if individual businesses wnat to do that, that's their rights.

i dont think it's smart to lead a majority for a minority problem. cant have the tail wag the dog. yes it's sad. but the most immune compromised have a solution. if they dont believe in the efficacy of the vaccines then they have to make decisions. But to hold back the majority of people for a minority of people who have a solution? doesn't add up. cost benefit analysis isnt there. 

I'd tell the truth. I wouldn't start a smear campaign against every other possible remedy in the name of the vaccine. I'd promote actual health initiatives. we didn't have a vaccine for almost a year and we spent a ridiculous amount of money on commercials and bullshit. did they tell anybody to get up and move around? or highlight processed foods and their effect on heart disease and your immune system if you get covid? I workout 6 days a week, do you think my risk of complications from covid are the same as a 300lb person? just like hospitals ... you can build out extra facilities like they did in chicago the first wave. they know the hotspots, they have the testing, they can tell where the next zones may be .... but they don't build out facilities? why? because covid doesn't pay well. elective surgeries do. hospitals run thin because they're a business. empty beds hurt margins. so do covid beds. so of course they're going to go on a campaign about not having beds. there are solutions, but they don't want them. if you have 20 beds for normal services, and then a pandemic hits, of course they're going to be overrun. they didn't have excess space. 

 You can't lead with lies and you cant treat society as a nanny state/child. You don't get a healthy society that way. You get a reliant society. reliant on air dropped money. reliant on government to save them.  I think they think they're doing it to protect people, but what a mess of a way to do it. How asinine is it to think that your safety against this is ONLY vaccine based. 

I think the people in the military are ridiculous. it can be good for individuals no doubt. i think it's disgusting that they come into schools and recruit literal kids to go fight for things they can't even begin to comprehend or reason about. But i also think it says something that there's this pushback .... 100,000,000 people can't be without a point. how many times do 100,000,000 people agree on a topic? it might make sense to listen why little johnny is willing to go fight a pointless war in the middle east but doesn't want a vaccine. his points may be hollow, but you may want to listen. 

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1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'd tell the truth. I wouldn't start a smear campaign against every other possible remedy in the name of the vaccine. I'd promote actual health initiatives. we didn't have a vaccine for almost a year and we spent a ridiculous amount of money on commercials and bullshit. did they tell anybody to get up and move around? or highlight processed foods and their effect on heart disease and your immune system if you get covid? I workout 6 days a week, do you think my risk of complications from covid are the same as a 300lb person? just like hospitals ... you can build out extra facilities like they did in chicago the first wave. they know the hotspots, they have the testing, they can tell where the next zones may be .... but they don't build out facilities? why? because covid doesn't pay well. elective surgeries do. hospitals run thin because they're a business. empty beds hurt margins. so do covid beds. so of course they're going to go on a campaign about not having beds. there are solutions, but they don't want them. if you have 20 beds for normal services, and then a pandemic hits, of course they're going to be overrun. they didn't have excess space. 

Just another example of you talking about things you haven't bothered to learn about. Do you know how much is involved to run an ICU bed? Or a ventilator? It's not simply adding a bed, you need to add facilities, equipment, and well trained staff. Where exactly do you get these well trained and experienced staff? There are some healthcare workers who travel from state to state during emergencies for high pay, but as we've seen again and again over the last 18 months - that only works if there's one hotspot, like NYC - not if your entire country is filled with hotspots. You can't just convert regular doctors to trained ICU workers, it doesn't work like that.

And there's no smear campaign against any possible treatment that actually has evidence that it works. If people can get access to the $1500 a dose antibody treatment - great, but there's not enough doses for all the cases, and in a lot of cases it doesn't work well since it's most effective if delivered early, before the virus is out of control and causing severe symptoms. Hydroxychloroquine - there was one paper with a lot of question marks, but because of that we dumped it on literally millions of people because we were so desperate for something to use, and frankly there are probably people who were injured by taking that drug. It was absolute lunacy that so many people decided to push it with very little evidence, including people all the way up to the President. The first study with Ivermectin - the supposed hospital where it was done has no evidence that it was ever actually done. It's been studied and shown essentially no evidence that it works. People will continue to study it, but to promote it, to the point that people are taking dangerous doses and forms made for horses, with no evidence? That should not be ok.

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4 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

yah republicans are ridiculous. they fall in line behind politics and religion. they're all a mask. most people cant defend their positions and most are hollow and fed to them by the team they want to be on. democrats are not all that different either. I'd probably say i lean more democrat, but i think they're lost in their policies of trying to help the ones who need it the most. 

the flip side? I'm full of shit too. i have contradictions. we all do. I try to limit them. overall i'm for letting people live their lives. i think an overreach like this, or like the news today that the government is going to mandate employers with over 100 employees that they have to have their people vaccinated, or tested weekly, or take a $14k fine per week? Really? 

Imagine owning a family business that you grew and now you have to pass that along and deal with all that comes from it. Why? because the government is full of a bunch of pussies that instead of mandating it themselves, push it onto someone else to mandate, and then fine them if they dont. it's a b**** move. This type of move is asinine at best. Forcing 100,000,000 americans to take a vaccine won't end well. Everybody has had more than opportunity, more than enough shaming to make their decision. those 100mm? good luck. (side note, big pharma is gonna love this ... as long as they can continue to sell covid, they have a risk free annuity of boosters every year, go grab that stock)

I still go back to this is all for Covid .... for Covid! Imagine a disease that comes along that is more powerful. that is more deadly. Imagine what they're going to do to in the name of  "global warming". it's all framing and i think this opens a big can of worms towards a very dangerous path. and not to change subject, that's not anti global warming ... i think it's a bunch of contradictions. they create a hamster wheel economy of cheap money and  go, go, go which leads to more and more consumption which drives more and more pollution all in the name of trying to keep the throne of the top power. Fix the money, fix the problems.   i think that nuclear is a very safe, cheap, effective clean energy source that has been tossed aside. I think that renewables while good, are not necessarily reliable (see germany). they are going to lead very expensive, unreliable energy into the future and those who will end up paying the most? The bottom half again?  they throw away to the side the mining needed to make these solar panels. They for sure ignore the labor used to dig up these components, etc. We all need energy, but when prices go up, the bottom half will get hit hardest again.

The ideas? I have no problem with, the execution? i do have a problem with. vaccines are good. there's no doubt they're helpful, but acting like they're the end all be all is questionable at best. 

The force is strong with you.  

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7 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This one got to me.

You should want people to get vaxxed, full stop.

It's amazing that it is running rampant in Mississippi and their governor is like "it's gods plan this is fine"

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17 hours ago, Tony said:

You aren't offering any solutions regarding COVID. It's easy to say what you don't like, but what do you think should be done? 

Here would be my question based on what I believe your stance is. The government hasn't mandated every American needs to get the vaccine. But they have mandated all government employees must get it. It's not a right to have a job (as you know), but a privilege. In this case, getting the COVID vaccine is now part of the job requirement. Don't like it, don't have to take the job. 

I know you're anti-war based only your above post, but as I mentioned a few pages back......since before I was born, there are over a dozen vaccines every enlisted person gets within the military. It's been a "mandate" for years. Unless I've not been paying attention, I've never seen a lot of backlash over that. No one is forcing anyone to serve, but if you choose to take that path, getting vaccinated isn't a choice. It's a mandate. 

I guess my point is I don't know why so many are up in arms about their "freedoms" and "mandates" when these things have existed for decades. If you don't want the COVID vaccine, right now that's your choice.....but there are going to be things you aren't able to do because of that choice. And the point is that same scenario has existed for decades, but no one seemed to give a shit until now. 

I believe most schools require kids to be vaccinated before they are allowed to attend. Nobody seems to get upset about that either. From Kindergarten all the way through 9th grade.

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3 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

I believe most schools require kids to be vaccinated before they are allowed to attend. Nobody seems to get upset about that either. From Kindergarten all the way through 9th grade.

It is much easier to name the ones that do not.  This is a standard thing to have your kids get their shots before school starts.

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anybody find it odd that Johnson and Johnson vaccines cannot be found anywhere ... like that's not an option anymore. Some websites will start off saying it is an option, but then only let you choose Moderna or Pfizer. However CVS dropped it entirely. CVS, Walgreens, Albertsons (Osco) etc.  .... nothing. not an option. 

 

That was done very quietly ...

 

Seems odd to me that this is such a quiet story, that the sites will say they're available and they've updated their websites, but then don't allow you to pick J&J? Maybe you have to specifically call and request? I'm not sure. 

 

 

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21 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

yah republicans are ridiculous. they fall in line behind politics and religion.

America is in trouble. At a crossroads. Politics is EVERYTHING. There's no escape anywhere. Sports are infested with politics and social issues. It's not a game anymore, it's politics.

This is the most serious health crisis in American history and it's been all about politics in terms of attacking the problem. Republicans and Democrats despise each other. It's only going to get worse with Trump still a possible candidate which freaks out the Democrats/media and Joe doing a lot of things angering Republicans.

Can we come together as a society? All I'm hearing today are threats of lawsuits by businesses against the government over vaccine mandates at work. Lot of hatred. Specifically about the vaccine ... my guess is this thing will lessen only after virtually everybody gets Covid. It hasn't slowed yet and the country is so divided people will not cooperate.

Edited by greg775
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7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

It's amazing that it is running rampant in Mississippi and their governor is like "it's gods plan this is fine"

The other thing I wonder is if Trump won the election, would the vaccine still be a terrible thing and an infringement on the rights of these people?  Would the left be the nutty ones and do what these people are currently doing? At some point, you have to put your politics aside.

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1 hour ago, greg775 said:

America is in trouble. At a crossroads. Politics is EVERYTHING. There's no escape anywhere. Sports are infested with politics and social issues. It's not a game anymore, it's politics.

This is the most serious health crisis in American history and it's been all about politics in terms of attacking the problem. Republicans and Democrats despise each other. It's only going to get worse with Trump still a possible candidate which freaks out the Democrats/media and Joe doing a lot of things angering Republicans.

Can we come together as a society? All I'm hearing today are threats of lawsuits by businesses against the government over vaccine mandates at work. Lot of hatred. Specifically about the vaccine ... my guess is this thing will lessen only after virtually everybody gets Covid. It hasn't slowed yet and the country is so divided people will not cooperate.

This is called "Fox News Brain" 

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4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

The other thing I wonder is if Trump won the election, would the vaccine still be a terrible thing and an infringement on the rights of these people?  Would the left be the nutty ones and do what these people are currently doing? At some point, you have to put your politics aside.

There is an antivax left that might have been more empowered, but guys like Robert Kennedy Jr. are already out running antivax things and calling people hitler right now so I’m not sure how much of a difference you would have on that. 

A much bigger question is what we would have done had they tried to release then last September, before the multi month safety and effectiveness trials were in. I don’t think I would have taken it then, not without data showing it worked and was safe.

Also worth noting that the manufacturing and distribution were a bloody mess on January 20, so it might not even have been a question for most people.

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8 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

anybody find it odd that Johnson and Johnson vaccines cannot be found anywhere ... like that's not an option anymore. Some websites will start off saying it is an option, but then only let you choose Moderna or Pfizer. However CVS dropped it entirely. CVS, Walgreens, Albertsons (Osco) etc.  .... nothing. not an option. 

 

That was done very quietly ...

 

Seems odd to me that this is such a quiet story, that the sites will say they're available and they've updated their websites, but then don't allow you to pick J&J? Maybe you have to specifically call and request? I'm not sure. 

 

 

Yes, so quietly that it took scrolling…1…link on Google to find out about it. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/04/cvs-health-stops-offering-jj-covid-vaccine-at-its-pharmacies-available-at-select-minuteclinics.html

The Target a half mile from me right now does have it. 

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On 9/9/2021 at 8:45 AM, BrianAnderson said:

That's a bit too conspiracy. 

It's pretty simple if you ask me. It's not about the vaccine at all. It's not about the science of a vaccine. It's about being anti-government, anti-mandate, pro choice to make your own decisions, and that the messaging continues to shift. 

"two weeks to flatten the curve"

"non-essential businesses must shut down to help" (meanwhile every corporation was okay to stay open)

"the vaccine will set you free"

"now you need a booster to enjoy your freedoms"

:"here is our six step plan to eradicate a virus" (that can't be eradicated)

Or how yesterday you have the economic counsel yesterday say that food inflation isn't really all that bad. it's actually normal if you just take out the pork, beef, and chicken prices ... yah okay, cause nobody eats those. basically? who trusts the government? so this is an opportunity to make their voice heard. 

Or how they skirt the actual science while touting science. if you want to go to hawaii? a saints game, a blackhawks game? etc. etc. you have to either be vaccinated or show negative test. how does that actually make sense? the real science would be a negative test to get in... you can produce these rapid tests for pennies. we spent trillions on a response, but can't spend the pennies to make these rapid tests available to the masses? the vaccine HELPS reduce spread. it's not fool proof. hell, the immunity is rolling off ... someone who contracted covid in the past 3 months has more immunity and protection against the spread than a vaccinated person. But that doesn't fit the "us v them" model that needs to be created. so theres a whole set of people who are creating this "vaccinated v unvaccinated" story line. 

in general republicans are going to lean towards individual freedoms and rights and choices. i dont think a lot of those people are thinking of this as "i dont believe science" - more I'm not going to listen to the government. 

It's a lot of people who are frankly fed up with the government and this is their symbolic stand that they aren't going to take it. Or at least its how i view it. 

I can’t understand why people don’t look at science and think, when new facts are found or new evidence is discovered, why shouldn’t science change and recommendations change? Science should be evolving and not stay the same.

People can be fed up with government, but the fact is Trump got operation warp speed going and the vaccine was safe after the election. He even got the vaccine and had he won, I would be interested to know what vaccine hesitant people would have done with the vaccine. I still want to know why people would rather get the virus and use treatments like imervectin, regeneron, remdesivir and hydroxicloroquine rather than get the vaccine. 

On 9/9/2021 at 2:37 PM, BrianAnderson said:

a - not a republican

b - not a democrat

c - maybe you should stop type casting people

c - they're both full of shit

d - free healthcare for all. healthcare is a right! but only if you're vaccinated. if not vaccinated then you can rot and die, don't take my hospital beds. Was that supposed to be in green? My body, my choice. But vaccines should be mandated. forced. 

e - like i said, both sides are full of shit. the hypocrisy runs deep not just politically but across the board individually. people will do anything to justify their sides. 

I am not tribal to any team. I am an independent thinker. this whole thing is a lot more grey than black or white. This board is a big echo chamber of people who don't care to think and just parrot speaking points they hear on TV without applying critical thinking to the process. Guess what? Covid can be a bad terrible thing, and also overblown. You can care about people, but also understand cost benefit analysis of a small minority of mostly immune compromised, aged people dying against the response, which will have lasting, long-term effects on this generation and future generations. It doesn't make you heartless, it makes you reasoned. 

Want to rock your mind. I am pro choice, I think a whole shit load of guns should be banned. I am pro do whatever the hell you want to do in your personal life. Pretend you're a cat if you want. Dress up and wear ears and drink milk from a bowl, I don't give a shit. Just don't come looking for handouts. Take personal accountability for your actions. take a vaccine, don't take a vaccine. Whatever. I am for the government staying the hell out of my business. I am pro-police, anti war. I think we shouldn't be in nearly as many peoples business across the globe. I'll go as far as to say if we weren't from the USA we'd all hate us. We go around bullying the world trying to make them into us. I think we're full of lazy, fat, biggoted, entitled, undereducated assholes. I'd bring in immigrants by the boat load. they're hungry, accountable and drive new ideas, culture and business. I am anti religion - it's another layer to hide behind to justify and make people feel better about themselves. but go for hte gold if you want to apply religion as your purpose in life, not my business to get involved in. In fact, the whole world would be a lot better if we just taught all religions and beliefs. St. Pats in the West Loop does this. Teach the background of these religions and the history. It's about understanding. Go worship the God, the sun, or the White sox. I don't really care, it's not for me, but can be for you if you want. I think that big banks and money are the ultimate evil. Money rots the world. People think we were in Afghanistan to try and bring democracy? child please. We're there about oil and poppy fields. They serve up distractions and we eat them with fries. I think that private equity, consolidation and cheap money is rotting the very root of what is good. It's taking away jobs, its funneling money to a few, and leaving the world worse off. I think cheap goods from china are a trojan horse. They're doing it right. we're off fighting 20 year pointless wars, they're over there building roads and hospitals in africa and the middle east in order to have rights and control to rare earth minerals and metals. i think donald trump is an evil egotisitcal old man who is not only corrupt, but possibly the worst person to run a coutntry. god help us if he runs and wins again. i think joe biden is also an ego maniac who has had his best days behind him. i was an andrew yang guy. money should be going back to the poorest. new ideas. UBI, new police training, etc. I think covid, when compared to the possible steps towards some sort of totalitarian society is not worth it.  That's not crazy, look at Australia. The endless money printing is going to further divide this country. take youre $1,400 checks and think you're getting something. reality is that was all pissed away in one year of inflation. now everything costs more and the people at the bottom make less. homes are less affordable for a whole subset of people. food is more expensive. We're creating a class society and all in the name of covid. Nothing good comes from divide. I am anti big Pharma. I am anti big corporations. the fact that this board has a 2 year running thread on covid, but nobody fucking cares about opioids, the obese culture we live in, the poor education system, the ridiculous college tuitions, etc. is insane. if people put as much time into those topics we'd be much better off. But unfortunately that's not the case. it's always boiled down to simplicity. simple points for simple people. RED. BLUE. CUBS. SOX. VACCINATED. UNVACCINATED. GOOD. BAD. im sure the next response to this will just be highlighting and picking this apart, that's what this board is about. picking people apart. 

I say lets do rapid testing or about natural immunity ... and all of a sudden that's controversial. guess what guys? I'm on your team. i'm vaccinated. im just not a sheep. 

Posted in the Washington Post yesterday. So you either are going to trust a study of "hundreds" or "tens of thousands". I'm sure when this data comes out though that it will be swept under the rug. It doesn't fit the narrative. the article is pretty meh. doesn't offer much in the way of details ... so we'll see what it actually says when it's released. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/vaccines-versus-covid-19-the-great-immunity-debate/2021/09/07/b55f2aca-0fe4-11ec-baca-86b144fc8a2d_story.html

While not officially published, a scientific paper announcing the new data has impressed the medical community because it’s based on a study of tens of thousands of people conducted this summer when the delta variant was dominant, and because the researchers measured what matters most: whether people got sick or were hospitalized, not just whether their antibodies changed or some tiny amount of virus was detected in their noses.

The new findings might force a rethinking of the current U.S. policy of recommending full vaccination to people who’ve already had a documented case of Covid-19. And, while it still makes sense to encourage anyone who hasn’t had the virus to get the shots, doctors might want to reconsider whether the Moderna version would be a better bet. Several studies, including one out of the Mayo Clinic, show it might offer more durable protection against the delta variant.

 

 

 

 

oh, and again, i'm vaccinated. figure that one out. pro-vaccination, but considering other angles ... weird isn't it? welcome to my tribe, population ONE. 

So you think we are incapable of critical thinking and independent thinking?

While I had a sick day today (a rarity for me) I watched a fascinating perspective from Frontline on America after 9/11 (https://video.wttw.com/video/america-after-911-sxarls/) The argument was that actions taken from different administrations have taken have created a mistrust of government and division in the country. There is no unity anymore like there had been.

We can’t have many other threads about those bolded issues and we do have one on student loan debt. This issue just happens to be one that impacts us all every day. I am not about picking people apart, I would love to have productive conversations with people and meet in the middle and solve issues. But many people don’t want to have those conversations and just restate their positions or point out whataboutisms.

Also, are we sheep because many of us are pro-vaccine? I’d consider other methods for combating the pandemic but right now the vaccines are the best thing we have until more research comes out and says otherwise. I’ll read the article you mentioned and consider it.

On 9/9/2021 at 4:11 PM, BrianAnderson said:

yah republicans are ridiculous. they fall in line behind politics and religion. they're all a mask. most people cant defend their positions and most are hollow and fed to them by the team they want to be on. democrats are not all that different either. I'd probably say i lean more democrat, but i think they're lost in their policies of trying to help the ones who need it the most. 

the flip side? I'm full of shit too. i have contradictions. we all do. I try to limit them. overall i'm for letting people live their lives. i think an overreach like this, or like the news today that the government is going to mandate employers with over 100 employees that they have to have their people vaccinated, or tested weekly, or take a $14k fine per week? Really? 

Imagine owning a family business that you grew and now you have to pass that along and deal with all that comes from it. Why? because the government is full of a bunch of pussies that instead of mandating it themselves, push it onto someone else to mandate, and then fine them if they dont. it's a b**** move. This type of move is asinine at best. Forcing 100,000,000 americans to take a vaccine won't end well. Everybody has had more than opportunity, more than enough shaming to make their decision. those 100mm? good luck. (side note, big pharma is gonna love this ... as long as they can continue to sell covid, they have a risk free annuity of boosters every year, go grab that stock)

I still go back to this is all for Covid .... for Covid! Imagine a disease that comes along that is more powerful. that is more deadly. Imagine what they're going to do to in the name of  "global warming". it's all framing and i think this opens a big can of worms towards a very dangerous path. and not to change subject, that's not anti global warming ... i think it's a bunch of contradictions. they create a hamster wheel economy of cheap money and  go, go, go which leads to more and more consumption which drives more and more pollution all in the name of trying to keep the throne of the top power. Fix the money, fix the problems.   i think that nuclear is a very safe, cheap, effective clean energy source that has been tossed aside. I think that renewables while good, are not necessarily reliable (see germany). they are going to lead very expensive, unreliable energy into the future and those who will end up paying the most? The bottom half again?  they throw away to the side the mining needed to make these solar panels. They for sure ignore the labor used to dig up these components, etc. We all need energy, but when prices go up, the bottom half will get hit hardest again.

The ideas? I have no problem with, the execution? i do have a problem with. vaccines are good. there's no doubt they're helpful, but acting like they're the end all be all is questionable at best. 

The government’s way of mandating vaccines is to do so with public sector employees and put the onus on the private sector since the private sector can set rules. I fully elect the government to face lawsuits and I will be watching closely to see what mandate is upheld. I will also be curious to see how many companies mandate vaccines and how much bitching and backlash there will be from people not being able to do things or work at their employer without testing or a vaccine like they could before. My company mandated vaccines and the people I know would throw a fit about this would probably face a similar mandate at other companies so it could be a lose lose situation if they were going to leave.

8 hours ago, greg775 said:

America is in trouble. At a crossroads. Politics is EVERYTHING. There's no escape anywhere. Sports are infested with politics and social issues. It's not a game anymore, it's politics.

This is the most serious health crisis in American history and it's been all about politics in terms of attacking the problem. Republicans and Democrats despise each other. It's only going to get worse with Trump still a possible candidate which freaks out the Democrats/media and Joe doing a lot of things angering Republicans.

Can we come together as a society? All I'm hearing today are threats of lawsuits by businesses against the government over vaccine mandates at work. Lot of hatred. Specifically about the vaccine ... my guess is this thing will lessen only after virtually everybody gets Covid. It hasn't slowed yet and the country is so divided people will not cooperate.

Check out the video I mentioned to BrianAnderson. Get some popcorn and watch it on 9/11. This is an argument where the unity went away and the division started. https://video.wttw.com/video/america-after-911-sxarls/

Do you think mandating vaccines is about politics or is it leadership? Encouraging the vaccines hasn’t worked so maybe sticks are needed rather than carrots. Some republicans like Mitch McConnell have promoted vaccines. I don’t think we can come together and will remain divided and I hope we don’t see a repeat of January 6 on September 18 at the Justice for J6 rally.

On 9/9/2021 at 4:45 PM, BrianAnderson said:

I'd handle it with no mandates. no governmental vaccine passports. if individual businesses wnat to do that, that's their rights.

i dont think it's smart to lead a majority for a minority problem. cant have the tail wag the dog. yes it's sad. but the most immune compromised have a solution. if they dont believe in the efficacy of the vaccines then they have to make decisions. But to hold back the majority of people for a minority of people who have a solution? doesn't add up. cost benefit analysis isnt there. 

I'd tell the truth. I wouldn't start a smear campaign against every other possible remedy in the name of the vaccine. I'd promote actual health initiatives. we didn't have a vaccine for almost a year and we spent a ridiculous amount of money on commercials and bullshit. did they tell anybody to get up and move around? or highlight processed foods and their effect on heart disease and your immune system if you get covid? I workout 6 days a week, do you think my risk of complications from covid are the same as a 300lb person? just like hospitals ... you can build out extra facilities like they did in chicago the first wave. they know the hotspots, they have the testing, they can tell where the next zones may be .... but they don't build out facilities? why? because covid doesn't pay well. elective surgeries do. hospitals run thin because they're a business. empty beds hurt margins. so do covid beds. so of course they're going to go on a campaign about not having beds. there are solutions, but they don't want them. if you have 20 beds for normal services, and then a pandemic hits, of course they're going to be overrun. they didn't have excess space. 

 You can't lead with lies and you cant treat society as a nanny state/child. You don't get a healthy society that way. You get a reliant society. reliant on air dropped money. reliant on government to save them.  I think they think they're doing it to protect people, but what a mess of a way to do it. How asinine is it to think that your safety against this is ONLY vaccine based. 

I think the people in the military are ridiculous. it can be good for individuals no doubt. i think it's disgusting that they come into schools and recruit literal kids to go fight for things they can't even begin to comprehend or reason about. But i also think it says something that there's this pushback .... 100,000,000 people can't be without a point. how many times do 100,000,000 people agree on a topic? it might make sense to listen why little johnny is willing to go fight a pointless war in the middle east but doesn't want a vaccine. his points may be hollow, but you may want to listen. 

Okay, so you listen. What happens when you listen and is there any action or more arguing?

Edited by The Beast
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12 minutes ago, The Beast said:

I can’t understand why people don’t look at science and think, when new facts are found or new evidence is discovered, why shouldn’t science change and recommendations change? Science should be evolving and not stay the same.

People can be fed up with government, but the fact is Trump got operation warp speed going and the vaccine was safe after the election. He even got the vaccine and had he won, I would be interested to know what vaccine hesitant people would have done with the vaccine. I still want to know why people would rather get the virus and use treatments like imervectin, regeneron, remdesivir and hydroxicloroquine rather than get the vaccine. 

So you think we are incapable of critical thinking and independent thinking?

While I had a sick day today (a rarity for me) I watched a fascinating perspective from Frontline on America after 9/11 (https://video.wttw.com/video/america-after-911-sxarls/) The argument was that actions taken from different administrations have taken have created a mistrust of government and division in the country. There is no unity anymore like there had been.

We can’t have many other threads about those bolded issues and we do have one on student loan debt. This issue just happens to be one that impacts us all every day. I am not about picking people apart, I would love to have productive conversations with people and meet in the middle and solve issues. But many people don’t want to have those conversations and just restate their positions or point out whataboutisms.

Also, are we sheep because many of us are pro-vaccine? I’d consider other methods for combating the pandemic but right now the vaccines are the best thing we have until more research comes out and says otherwise. I’ll read the article you mentioned and consider it.

The government’s way of mandating vaccines is to do so with public sector employees and put the onus on the private sector since the private sector can set rules. I fully elect the government to face lawsuits and I will be watching closely to see what mandate is upheld. I will also be curious to see how many companies mandate vaccines and how much bitching and backlash there will be from people not being able to do things or work at their employer without testing or a vaccine like they could before. My company mandated vaccines and the people I know would throw a fit about this would probably face a similar mandate at other companies so it could be a lose lose situation if they were going to leave.

Check out the video I need ruined to BrianAnderson. Get some popcorn and watch it on 9/11. This is an argument where the unity went away and the division started. https://video.wttw.com/video/america-after-911-sxarls/

Do you think mandating vaccines is about politics or is it leadership? Encouraging the vaccines hasn’t worked so maybe sticks are needed rather than carrots. Some republicans like Mitch McConnell have promoted vaccines. I don’t think we can come together and will remain divided and I hope we don’t see a repeat of January 6 on September 18 at the Justice for J6" rally.

Okay, so you listen. What happens when you listen and is there any action or more arguing?

I think a lot of the anti-vax conspiracy stuff got tested out in the 9/11 truther stuff.  It was almost like a training in how to sell a message to the masses and how to find the things that work, and the things that didn't.  It also has really helped that China and Russia have gotten way better at figuring out how to sell death to Americans as a patriotic thing, and a ton of Americans are swallowing it hook, line, and dewormer.

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Most of these replies are too long to read. Just thought I'd say that. Peace.

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6 hours ago, greg775 said:

Most of these replies are too long to read. Just thought I'd say that. Peace.

Read the one that pertains to your post. The response is short, the quoted portions are longer.

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12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, so quietly that it took scrolling…1…link on Google to find out about it. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/04/cvs-health-stops-offering-jj-covid-vaccine-at-its-pharmacies-available-at-select-minuteclinics.html

The Target a half mile from me right now does have it. 

okay, did you try and click on that target website .... like i said, they SAY it's available, but if you try and schedule a j&J vaccine, its not an option. i just went on target's website, no option for J&J anywhere near downers grove... i scrolled until they wouldn't offer any more options of target locations... not one had J&J. Same thing if you go to the national website to coordinate these vax. they'll say j&J is available at every single osco ... then you go and click, and no option for J&J. same for walgreens, same for every single pharmacy. 

And also, yes, that's the article i referenced. one article. you don't think that's weird? in a pandemic that consumes the every waking minute of our lives? That ONE of the THREE options of vaccines that are being mandated on a 350mm person population has been taken away? they talk about horse dewormer like 5 times a day, but not that J&J isn't available? 

I don't know how many times i have to say this, but im vaccinated ... this isn't a "this is a government conspiracy" post. it's a ... uh, why arent they offering J&J and why has there been an effort to keep that so quiet? Like i said, you'll hear about every single other story 10X a day, but this one? One article a month ago about CVS ... other than that ... nada. 

If i had to take a guess? J&J doesn't have a booster ready or approved and with the variants, they're gonna need boosters. Between that and the early blood clots and complications that demand went down significantly when it was brought back, so instead of stocking them, they just let them run out and didnt order additional rounds... 

But of course "crazy brian anderson" bringing up anything that questions anything is considered an attack on health!! :) 

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10 hours ago, The Beast said:

So you think we are incapable of critical thinking and independent thinking?

can't really paint with broad strokes, and i clearly did. which is wrong. but i do think reading this board on this topic it does fall back to the same talking points of generally vax = good, unvax = bad and very black and white. which is very frustrating. 

vax people seem to have this idea that if all 100% of the US was vaxxed that our lives would just be 100% normal. and i just disagree based on science and math. delta variants, among other future variants will always find their way into the US. some are going to be stronger and some are going to side step vaccines and causes issues. and while i think people should be vaxxed, i also think completely ignoring natural immunity is wild. we don't know the science on natural immunity, but there are clearly hundreds of years of data on other viruses where natural immunity has a good track record and would suspect this would be the same. Life is going to be the vaccine and then boosters on a 6-12 month rolling period until this is lessened. however i'd venture we are in an endemic. you're not going to knock this thing off in india and africa and across the globe. so it will always be mutating and coming back to the US. Some years will be nothing, and then others will be a bad "flu" season where we all should get boosters. 

I'll check out the 9/11 thing over the next few days/week. I'll be at the game today, so won't have time to watch today. 

10 hours ago, The Beast said:

The government’s way of mandating vaccines is to do so with public sector employees and put the onus on the private sector since the private sector can set rules.

i know my company ... which is HUGE, already sent out their HR response. I was surprised, considering how big we are of the tone of the email. Basic talking points were this poses more questions than answers, would be complicated and said they'd "encourage" us to get vaxxed and to talk to our doctors to see if it was right for us. aka, i dont think they're going to require it, but may give a nice, "gentle" push. my problem is you likely have a table of aids talking about how they can mandate the vaccine without having to do it themselves. Why? because they're worried on how that looks on them during the next election. leaders shouldn't be self-serving. leadership is about doing things for the betterment of your team or people at the expense of yourself. like when someone on my team screws up, even if it was all them, i step in, i take accountability with the client and say this happened under my watch, and its my fault. then you teach your team  how to do better. in this case, i dont think that's what is happening. I could be wrong, but that's at least how i'm viewing this pushdown onto the private sector. 

10 hours ago, The Beast said:

Okay, so you listen. What happens when you listen and is there any action or more arguing?

no real answer there. not sure. but can't see forcing a subset of people who have clearly resisted every opportunity going very well socially. 

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