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... it's about time

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 31, 2011 -> 07:22 PM)
It did take Viciedo 3 AB to match Dunn's hit total vs. LHP this season.

:blink:

 

Wow. But in Dunn's defense, with him it's lefty vs. lefty, and with Viciedo it's...oh, nevermind.

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QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 08:26 AM)
What in God's name are you smoking?

You know, he might actually be right...there's probably motivation for a number of moves that we don't understand, like managing the clubhouse. Ozzie Guillen made a lot of the same errors he makes now when he had winning teams, he just would have the players respond better.

 

That's why I say Guillen can only be evaluated based on the team's performance. If he's making mistakes on the field, fine, as long as we're winning games.

 

But this team has now underachieved for 3 straight years, in almost everyone's eyes. The fire that you see in a team like this year's Indians, or the 2008 White Sox, where they play like they're never out of a game, has been missing for a while. We go through months where the team is nearly unwatchable.

 

That tells me that Ozzie Guillen is simply failing to do what he's supposed to be good at.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 31, 2011 -> 08:19 PM)
I love how you say that...then s*** gets censored at the end of your sentence.

 

:lolhitting that is pretty good

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QUOTE (La Marr Hoyt HOF @ Aug 31, 2011 -> 10:36 PM)
An average (strong statement) shortstop: career .264 AVG 28 HRs 169 SBs (108 CS) and an overrated fielder in 16 MLB seasons. Only 2 playoff performances as a manager of one of the highest payroll clubs in a lousy division in his tenure as manager including an '05 club that won despite him and had chemistry because of players like Rowand and Crede who truly kept the clubhouse 'loose' according to most recounts of our miraculous run. I don't get it. After games like tonight (8/31), who actually can still support this guy? Not to mention a foul-mouthed jerk.......

 

Did you ever see Ozzie play as a White Sox?

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QUOTE (SoIL @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 09:07 AM)
Did you ever see Ozzie play as a White Sox?

Apparently not often. The one thing Ozzie was always well above average at was defense at SS. Pre-knee injury, he was among the best at his position on defense.

 

But most everything else he said is spot-on, he was a below average hitter, and despite some speed was a below average base stealer.

 

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For the record: Ozzie made a number of gutsy calls in the '05 postseason that other managers may not have made.

 

Buehrle to close out game 3 at Houston

bringing in El Duque in Boston

leaving starters in for the duration instead of Manuel-ing the game by insisting on maintaining bullpen roles

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QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 10:46 AM)
For the record: Ozzie made a number of gutsy calls in the '05 postseason that other managers may not have made.

 

Buehrle to close out game 3 at Houston

bringing in El Duque in Boston

leaving starters in for the duration instead of Manuel-ing the game by insisting on maintaining bullpen roles

 

Yeah, I'm all for firing him now. But I won't pull that "THEY WON '05 IN SPITE OF OZZIE" bulls***.

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QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 11:17 AM)
Yeah, I'm all for firing him now. But I won't pull that "THEY WON '05 IN SPITE OF OZZIE" bulls***.

 

I agree. I think it's quite possible he's not as good at his job now as he was back then.

Edited by flavum

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QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 11:17 AM)
Yeah, I'm all for firing him now. But I won't pull that "THEY WON '05 IN SPITE OF OZZIE" bulls***.

 

 

QUOTE (flavum @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 11:19 AM)
I agree. I think it's quite possible he's not as good at his job now as he was back then.

 

Loud mouth personalities as coaches only work for a couple of years before the team tunes you out. (See: Scott Skiles)

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QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 04:46 PM)
For the record: Ozzie made a number of gutsy calls in the '05 postseason that other managers may not have made.

 

Buehrle to close out game 3 at Houston

 

Only reason he had to bring in Buehrle for game 3 was due to awful decision to bring in Hermanson in the 8th inning...but we won, so I don't really care to debate that right now.

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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 11:23 AM)
Loud mouth personalities as coaches only work for a couple of years before the team tunes you out. (See: Scott Skiles)

 

I dont see this comparison at all really. Skiles is a hard worker, demands hard work and accountability, and the NBA is a completely different beast when it comes to those types of coaches.

 

Ozzie is a loose, loud mouth, "if you play good you are find with me" type of coach. Obviously accountability isnt among his strong suits, considering some of the bad players he has forced in the lineup in the past 6 years

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QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 10:46 AM)
For the record: Ozzie made a number of gutsy calls in the '05 postseason that other managers may not have made.

 

Buehrle to close out game 3 at Houston

bringing in El Duque in Boston

leaving starters in for the duration instead of Manuel-ing the game by insisting on maintaining bullpen roles

 

Who else was Ozzie going to throw in game 3? Ozzie ran out of relief pitchers, he had to pitch a starter and it was either Buehrle or Contreras. He chose Buehrle, which was the right move since Contreras would have to start game 5, but it's not like he had to make a really tough decision or anything.

 

If anything, Ozzie was playing bullpen roles. It was the 6th inning and he probably wasn't going to bring in anyone that would pitch the later innings. But, he did pick the right guy out of 3 others, so that's worth some praise.

 

And any manager would have loved to have gotten what Ozzie did out of his starters. There's no use in taking them out or "Manuel-ing" them when they all give up 3 runs or less and have very low pitch counts going into the later innings. Give the pitchers credit, Ozzie just sat there while they pitched their asses off.

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QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 10:46 AM)
For the record: Ozzie made a number of gutsy calls in the '05 postseason that other managers may not have made.

 

Buehrle to close out game 3 at Houston

bringing in El Duque in Boston

leaving starters in for the duration instead of Manuel-ing the game by insisting on maintaining bullpen roles

 

I wouldn't call those first two calls "gutsy". Both happened because Ozzie had no faith in Marte, which was warranted. In game 3, the entire bullpen had been used, so it's not like he had any other options. Against Boston, Marte loaded the bases, so you had to take him out. It was only the 6th, so you weren't gonna use a closer or set up guy, so the experienced long reliever was a solid choice.

 

I will give him credit for the use of his starters vs. the Angels. So many managers automatically go to their relievers in the 8th & 9th, and he stuck with his starters who were hot, and it paid off obviously.

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 04:56 AM)
You're preaching to the choir. I'd say about 98 percent of this board at this point realizes that Ozzie is incompetent.

 

 

Strong statement to make that Ozzie and/or Kenny are incompetent. I have seem some incompetent leaders come out on top because their people are winners. I think both are a bit reckless in their decision making, which is fine if they win, but if they lose they are called ... well, incompetent. One thing for certain, and this is just me feeling, this year has been one of the most unsettling and plain troubling I can remember for many years.

Edited by elrockinMT

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QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 10:22 AM)
Because some on the board realize that players have to play. couldn't win consistently with the types of seasons some very key players have had.

 

 

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 04:30 PM)
I dont see this comparison at all really. Skiles is a hard worker, demands hard work and accountability, and the NBA is a completely different beast when it comes to those types of coaches.

 

Ozzie is a loose, loud mouth, "if you play good you are find with me" type of coach. Obviously accountability isnt among his strong suits, considering some of the bad players he has forced in the lineup in the past 6 years

 

1.) Exactly. I think he's a manager of the year candidate if we somehow finished five over .500 with so many guys having bad seasons. KW really is off the hook with some of you because he gave one quote that said Ozzie could bench the guys making money if he wanted to. it doesn't work that way. Dunn, Rios and Peavy are wastes of space that he had to play because of their salaries.

2.) A loose loud mouth? Ozzie hasn't even come close to blasting Dunn this season for his crappiness and he showed good compassion to Thornton this year when Matt was blowing game after game early on. He also never buried Juan. He's a player's manager. I think you guys are wrong for wanting to show Ozzie the door after he gained all this experience on the South Side. He's going to have a LaRussa like career before all is said and done in terms of longevity and he'll win some more WS as well. If he wins one or two more he could be considered one of the greatest managers of all time and at his age, there's a chance he could do that whether you guys believe it or not.

Edited by greg775

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He berated Kenny Williams into dumping a Hall of Famer who averaged .270, 37 home runs and 98 RBI in three years with the White Sox. And thus did Jim Thome move on.

 

His preferred replacement was instrumental to Ozzie's mandate that the White Sox add speed to a lineup that Guillen claimed was held back by the logjam at the middle of the order caused by Paul Konerko and Thome. Handed to him on a silver platter by Williams despite his incomprehension, in 2010, White Sox Designated Hitter Mark Kotsay hit .239, with 8 home runs and 31 RBI.

 

Kotsay stole 1 base while with the Sox.

 

Ozzie's complete embarrassment, and Kenny's facilitation of it, did not sit well with mercurial one. In fact, Ozzie, always insecure and deservedly so after a middling Major League career and more bluster than success as a manager, was totally humiliated by the Kotsay mishap. Which of course was Williams' plan all along.

 

For 2011, Kenny brought in what he thought was a real power hitter, Adam "Big Donkey" Dung. Dung's success and utter lack of it have been chronicled here and elsewhere throughout Chicago ad nauseum, which is usually what Dung ends up producing in White Sox fans as he waddles toward the batter's box.

 

Rather than manage, Ozzie chose to trot Dung out, day after day, often in the most important spot in the batting order, until he could be sure Kenny's embarrassment over Dung was as acute as his over Kotsay. And there went another White Sox season.

 

Until yesterday.

 

That's when Dung, finally relegated to the bench where he belongs, was brought into a game situation in the ninth inning by Ozzie as a pinch hitter. The fact that Dung looks like he's shaking off 6 months worth of rust during at bats in which he has been playing everyday didn't deter Ozzie from putting him in the unenviable position of pinch hitting with the game on the line.

 

Of course, Dung struck out. What else can he do?

 

He was followed a couple batters later by Kenny's other big whiff of recent, Alex Rios. Rios struck out looking, which is more than what he does half the time when fly balls carry out his way.

 

And the game was started - and ended quickly - by complete Williams bust Jake Peavy, who despite his bluster and lectures to his Sox teammates to get tougher has been more fragile than cheap china from China in the midst of putting up Cy Dung caliber numbers such as a 4.90-something ERA while struggling to stay over .500.

 

What yesterday made clear is that Ozzie Guillen, who probably already realizes he is on the way out, will stay true to his stubborn ways and continue to try to find ways to embarrass Kenny Williams through his poor personnel decisions. What's also clear is that Ozzie Guillen is guilty of forfeiting games this season by continuing to do so.

 

And for that, even Oney oughta run him out of town . . .

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bozzie-

 

Read carefully. We don't start new threads every time you want to bash Ozzie, or Kenny, when there are already a myriad of threads on those topics to choose from. So I have yet again merged some.

 

Stop making a new thread every time you have a new post. Check first to see if there is a thread already there on-topic, and use it.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 12:56 PM)
bozzie-

 

Read carefully. We don't start new threads every time you want to bash Ozzie, or Kenny, when there are already a myriad of threads on those topics to choose from. So I have yet again merged some.

 

Stop making a new thread every time you have a new post. Check first to see if there is a thread already there on-topic, and use it.

 

Of course, Northside. I'll keep my new new threads similar in vein to the ones you seem to want to leave there; i.e.:

 

hey, how about all us fans give Dung a big ovation next time he comes to bat, white sox nation, woo hoo :gosox1: :gosoxretro: :britishflag:

 

it's on, Northside . . .

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 01:39 PM)
1.) Exactly. I think he's a manager of the year candidate if we somehow finished five over .500 with so many guys having bad seasons. KW really is off the hook with some of you because he gave one quote that said Ozzie could bench the guys making money if he wanted to. it doesn't work that way. Dunn, Rios and Peavy are wastes of space that he had to play because of their salaries.

2.) A loose loud mouth? Ozzie hasn't even come close to blasting Dunn this season for his crappiness and he showed good compassion to Thornton this year when Matt was blowing game after game early on. He also never buried Juan. He's a player's manager. I think you guys are wrong for wanting to show Ozzie the door after he gained all this experience on the South Side. He's going to have a LaRussa like career before all is said and done in terms of longevity and he'll win some more WS as well. If he wins one or two more he could be considered one of the greatest managers of all time and at his age, there's a chance he could do that whether you guys believe it or not.

No, no, no, no, for God's sake no! Even if nothing that has gone wrong could be blamed on Ozzie, he's not a manager of the year candidate. You can't be a manager of a team with a $125 million payroll that doesn't make the playoffs and even be anywhere near the words "manager of the year".

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QUOTE (bozzie @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 02:59 PM)
Of course, Northside. I'll keep my new new threads similar in vein to the ones you seem to want to leave there; i.e.:

 

hey, how about all us fans give Dung a big ovation next time he comes to bat, white sox nation, woo hoo :gosox1: :gosoxretro: :britishflag:

 

it's on, Northside . . .

 

LMAO

 

:lolhitting

Edited by ChiSox_Sonix

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 07:06 AM)
The White Sox haven't played the game of baseball the correct way in years now, no freakin clue what team you're watching. And it's one thing to not be a great tactician but it's another thing to make moves that are just plain idiotic. Pinch hitting Adam Dunn in a key situation for Lilli and batting Rios 4th are literally some of the dumbest moves you'll ever see a manager make.

Earl Weaver, considered by many one of the best mangers of all time, relied on ptching, defense, and sat back and waited for the 3 run homer. I don't agree with everything OG does but many people (not saying you) seem to think, no matter what Ozzie does is wrong. If he would have let Lillibridge bat and strike out, I'm sure some would have been saying Dunn should have been up there. I guess what I'm saying is most people just assume the best is going to happen if a situation was handled the way they think it should. If Dunn would have cracked a 3 run HR there, would people be giving Ozzie credit for a great move? I doubt it.

 

The one thing OG has done pretty consistently is put a wining team out there. They may not win enough all the time, but he's not a guy like Eric Wedge who wins manager of the year one year and is fired within 2-3 years afterwards. In my mind, the 3 most consistent managers in the AL have been Scioscia, Gardenhire and Ozzie. Their teams, for the most part, are always in it. I don't count Francona and Girardi because, with that payroll, all they have to do is not mess things up.

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QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 02:32 PM)
Earl Weaver, considered by many one of the best mangers of all time, relied on ptching, defense, and sat back and waited for the 3 run homer. I don't agree with everything OG does but many people (not saying you) seem to think, no matter what Ozzie does is wrong. If he would have let Lillibridge bat and strike out, I'm sure some would have been saying Dunn should have been up there. I guess what I'm saying is most people just assume the best is going to happen if a situation was handled the way they think it should. If Dunn would have cracked a 3 run HR there, would people be giving Ozzie credit for a great move? I doubt it.

 

The one thing OG has done pretty consistently is put a wining team out there. They may not win enough all the time, but he's not a guy like Eric Wedge who wins manager of the year one year and is fired within 2-3 years afterwards. In my mind, the 3 most consistent managers in the AL have been Scioscia, Gardenhire and Ozzie. Their teams, for the most part, are always in it. I don't count Francona and Girardi because, with that payroll, all they have to do is not mess things up.

 

This is where the outrage comes from....NOBODY would have been clamoring for Dunn. He is having the worst season in the history of modern baseball. He shouldn't be on the field ever again this season.

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QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 02:32 PM)
Earl Weaver, considered by many one of the best mangers of all time, relied on ptching, defense, and sat back and waited for the 3 run homer. I don't agree with everything OG does but many people (not saying you) seem to think, no matter what Ozzie does is wrong. If he would have let Lillibridge bat and strike out, I'm sure some would have been saying Dunn should have been up there.

 

:lolhitting

 

Really?

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I rather see Lillibridge strike out than Dunn. With Dunn, you already know what's going to happen, with Lilly, you don't know.

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QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 1, 2011 -> 02:32 PM)
The one thing OG has done pretty consistently is put a wining team out there.

 

He's consistently putting Rios in the 4th spot.

 

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