Dick Allen

They would have been better if they kept him, but how much is the question. Obviously, offensively he is an upgrade and he is nowhere near the defensive downgrade he was advertised. The Sox wouldn't be in first, but they probbly wouldn't be in last. AJ did have an effect on other players. He used to ride Ramirez hard. Mybe AJs absence is at least a small reason for Anorexei's struggles in the field

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 05:01 PM) Last year we heard over and over and over again that it was the most fundamentals-oriented spring training any of them ever went through. This year we haven't heard a peep even resembling that. Whether it was the WBC schedule, the fact that the team tired out last year, whatever...they didn't do the fundamentals focus they did last year and the results speak for themselves. We've given up more unearned runs this year so far than we did all of last year. Not to mention the missed cutoff men, etc. The most blatant one is the rundowns. outside of Youk who wasn't there for ST, it seemed like every rundown last year was executed perfectly. That's just a skill to practice; run at the guy and then 1 throw. We nailed that just about every time last year. This year I don't think I've seen it done correctly once. No one practiced it. Not a soul. Maybe he didn't realize how well it worked/ how important it was to last year's success, maybe he stopped caring, maybe the players stopped caring, maybe he decided the team was too tired at the end of the year. Whatever the reason was, I'd have extended him several years last offseason for hwo good the team looked. I want him fired now for how bad this team looks. If you weren't at spring training, i really think you are speaking out of turn. Like blaming Ramirez's error on spring training. Even if he didn't go to sprimg training, close to 80 games later, he should have it down. How is it if you practice it in February, you will be perfect at it in September, but then you forget all about it? The fundamentals are emphisized every day. The only place where I have seen it said they worked less on fundamentals in spring training this year is on this board by people who weren't there either year.if it were true, i would think someone, somewhere would hve mentioned it t least once.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 06:01 PM) If you trade Sale then what is the point? He is young and signed he is a building block not a trading block. The point is if you are going to be bad for a long time, like the Astros, Sale pitching ffor several years in meaningless games only increases his chances of getting hurt. He has already missed starts the last 2 seasons with soreness. So the other point would be, when you are ready to win, Sale would be more expensive and perhaps not nearly as effective. If it were a guarantee he would be healthy when the Sox were ready to win, you would not trade him, but pitchers, especially him, are far more likely to acquire a devasting injury than position players.

If you are totally rebuilding and won't be in contention for several years, Sale would have to be shopped. Pitching 3,4, or 5 or more years in games that are meaningless doesn't serve any purpose.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 02:45 PM) Obviously nobody is advocating dumping Reed for Nestor Molina or Simon Castro. If that's all you get back then you wouldn't make the trade. But let's say for example, Addison Reed nets you a guy like Matt Adams or Nick Castellanos. You would have to make that trade. He is a f***ing relief pitcher. Those guys are much much more valuable. You couldn't get either of those guys or a guy similar for Reed though so it is irrelevant. They don't have to trade Addison Reed. He's not a guy that you must keep either though. If there's an offer that "makes the team better" you make it. Guys like Reed can be replaced. If relievers are as easy to replace as you say, no one is going to ne willing to give up much for one in a trade. But any move that makes the team better you make, including Sale. If the argument is you don't need a closer during a rebuild, you certainly don't need a ticking time bomb making meaningless starts. So that would mean Sale has to go.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) If Reed for Garcia straight up was on the table right now & Hahn didn't pull the trigger then I believe he should be fired immediately. He should be fired if he took it. Garcia is not that good.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 09:37 AM) I'm saying that for a closer I think Reed has an average arm. I think he's an average closer who is playing above his head. I think you can get a lot out of a team maybe like Detroit if not Detroit specifically because winning games now matters a whole to them. When you have that many star & superstar players and you are in the weakest division in the league, and coming off another failed WS appearance, you need to win. For a team with major closer issues, a good quality closer is going to be worth more than he'd normally be worth, since having that type of player allows a manager to provide set roles for his relievers which can strengthen the entire pen. Conversely, with us, the pen isn't all that great now & will be trash once Thornton, Crain, and maybe Lindstrom are gone. Reed will be worth less to us than typical, and IMO it's a good bet that his value will probably drop later in the year as he is left trying to clean up the s*** his penmates put him in. You say there's no reason to trade him because he's cheap & young. Okay. Then you would agree that we need MLB-ready young players, right? How are we supposed to get those then? Because on the position side we really have a bunch of nothing. If you are in the position the Sox are in then there is no good reason to hang on to your Reed. Again, he's not that kind of arm. Someone was saying about trying to get Avisail Garcia from the Tigers in a package where we sent out Reed and another reliever like Crain. f***ing do it please! If it's possible, do it. You don't trade Reed for a few scraps, you dangle him out there (especially in a package with Thornton, Crain, or Lindstrom for a team with a bad pen) looking for a player who is a good bet to be an average MLB starting position player or better. And if you can land an MLB ready talent with a nice floor and star potential for a reliever or two without dynamite stuff then you do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it hard f*** yeah. You make a big deal about top 100 rankings, then say this would be a great trade? Reed was once ranked 66. Garcia just hit the board this year at 74. Trading Reed for a guy that projects to be average makes as little sense as your idea for Danish.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 09:03 AM) Huh? There's a huge difference between Sale & Reed. Sale is a building block, Reed is a part. Reed rocketed through the minors and barely made the top-100 prospect lists. He has a closer's mentality but just recently Bobby Jenks, Sale, Santos all had much better stuff. He's not that kind of arm. You're selling high because you need talent, and because you should be able to fill out that role during the regular process of auditioning power arms which is inherit to really every rebuilding/reloading project. Also, unlike starting pitchers, closers quickly make their market rates through arbitration. You can't even expect the typical 6 years from a young closer, it's more like 5 and maybe 6, because of arb. There's no reason to hang on to him. Trading away good, young ,cheap players for prospects,is a terrible way to rebuild. I guess people around here really like guys like Nestor Molina and Simon Castro. Personally, unless the Sox see some sort of injury about to happen, guys like Reed are guys I would love to keep around. Detroit, where money is no problem, would love to have Reed, and your baseless claim of his averageness, closing out games. Bullpens are a crapshoot, but the guys you can count on every year are pretty valuable. Saying there is no reason to hang on to him is ridiculous.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 08:47 AM) He doesn't have to be any better than he is. Question, do you think he can sustain this level of success? Because I still don't, I still think he's an average closer. I'd trade him because I would be very willing to bet that by the time the Sox are highly competitive again, even if it's only 2 seasons from now, we will have found an equal or better replacement. If Addison brings back an MLB ready position player with a high ceiling and a pretty decent floor, who will see good time this season, then it's a no-brainer IMO. Addison doesn't have an otherworldly arm & an equal or better quality starting position player is are going to be more valuable in general, especially to us because we can't seem to develop position players worth a s*** on our own. You are basing this off nothing. He is allowing fewer hits, striking out more and walking less than last year. He has been way better than an average closer, and at 24 there is no reason to think he has reached his peak. Again, if you think Reed is nothing more than average, chances are it will be next to impossible to think you would think anyone they got for him would be anything more than average. He's having a great season. He's controlled cheaply. If you trade him, it makes zero sense not to trade Sale.

Addison Reed is 24 years old, strikes out more than one an inning, has a WHIP below 1.00, and has 21 saves for a last place team not even halfway through the season. Why would you want to trade that, and how much better does he have to be? Take away the one game he blew the huge lead, and you are talking All Star. Anyone complaining about his performance will not be happy with the players they would get back for him.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jun 22, 2013 -> 03:47 PM) Yup, just not a smart ballplayer way too often. What is weird is he was fine until it came out he preferred LF. Now he sucks at both.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jun 22, 2013 -> 03:44 PM) Rios was in position to make the catch, looks like De Aza calls him off and of course neither catches it resulting in a "triple." Clearly Ventura's fault.

Crain looks Amish with that beard.e

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2013 -> 08:00 PM) They have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. There's just too many examples in recent years where those 2-3-4 prospects for one star player deals that didn't turn out well. Sale's the closest thing we have to a superstar in our organization, and if we trade him, we're no different than the Marlins trading Mike Stanton. If that's the case, we might as well go down to a $30-40-50 million roster and start taking the subsidies from the city of Chicago that guarantee 1.2 million in attendance and get 100% behind a rebuild. The thing is...nobody wants to go out to the park and see this current team anyway, well, maybe a few sentimental Paulie fans who want to say goodbye to the franchise player for the last decade. They would arguably be more profitable if they lopped off $50-60 million from payroll. I actually think a lot of fans would get more enjoyment out of banishing half of the current starting line-up to the Phantom Zone. That is what people are suggestimg. Thinking drafting in the top 10 is a guarantee to get good players is hogwash. The Sox drafted Aaron Poreda 25th in the first round in 2007. Do you know that 4 of the first 8 players selected in that draft have lower career WARS than Poreda? Many here think Gordon Beckham is a bust. He was the Sox pick in 2008. Did you know of the first 46 selections of that draft only Buster Posey and Brett Lawrie have highrt career WARS than Beckham. Losing really sucks. To think it pays off down the line is a hope not anywhere near a guarantee.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jun 20, 2013 -> 07:44 PM) Sale's really the only guy I couldn't see moving. If you are going to be bad for 5 years, he is the one who makes most sense to move.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2013 -> 03:16 PM) Did Tom Kelly ever have a team whose fundamentals were as poor as the 2013 Chicago White Sox? Yes.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 20, 2013 -> 02:36 PM) Losing is probably what's best for the organization based on how the first few months have gone, but it doesn't mean we don't want to see development by players that can help the club in the future (ie: Flowers' catching ability, Viciedo being able to hit RHP, etc.). When the same stupid mistakes happen game after game and no one is held accountable, it's frustrating to see as a fan. I understand the buzzword this season is accountability, but they have given everyone on the roster a shot and the same things occur when they come in as well. Since we are not in the clubhouse, it seems unfair to think there is no conversation going on. It's not like Alexei Ramirez has had his head completely in the game his entire career up until now. I also think complaining about accountability is ironic coming from message boards where no one is held accountable for their numerous errors. We all make many of them but we all go on like it we are never wrong.

What I don't understand is the posters who think losing is the best still complain when they lose. Shouldn't the losing make you happy if that is what you think is best?

QUOTE (Hawkfan @ Jun 20, 2013 -> 12:37 PM) Hawk off the record " Carlos Gomez would fix everything". Carlos has been doing a pretty good Mike Trout impression this season.

To gain compensation for Crain, you would have to offer him a 1 year deal for over $12 million. That isn't going to happen.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 07:29 PM) Well, whatever we were going to get is quickly disappearing, the window closing a bit. There was at least THE IDEA he could bring us back something...a couple of weeks ago. Not really. His stuff is short. There is no reason to think he ever was destined for long term success. He can help a pitching staff, and was very good for the Sox in stretches, but he never was somone you would get anything more than a marginal prospect. He woth more to the Sox than what they could get back for him, and who knows how much that even is. He has been a master at getting out of jams but that catches up to you eventually.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 07:25 PM) The way this season is going, any idea of trading Axelrod and getting any kind of decent return is being wiped out as well. First Floyd, then Peavy, we might as well have all our assets fizzle to make it the perfect storm of a season. Axelrod would never get you much of a return.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 07:22 PM) Peavy played under Bruce Bochy the Giants manager. They also seem like they could really use a SP. I like their uniforms, don't know if I'd like their prospects though. Hope they have someone good. Dylan Axelrod would be a big improvement for them right now. We can do that. Axe is getting lit up again tonight. He wouldn't fetch much. He is ome guy who is probably worth more to the Sox than what they could ever expect to get back for him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2013 -> 05:58 PM) You pretended my statement didn't happen. Are you ok with Santiago going back to the bullpen? You worry about that when the time comes. These things usually work themselves out eventually. I think whoever is traded is going to be based on the return. It would be silly to move anyone just to save money. They need to get talent back. And to whoever thinks Ramirez has to go, who exactly is going to play SS? Not just the rest of this year, but for the next couple of years? The Sox have so little in house, Ramirez has to play all the time, and it's not like starting SS are abundantly available in the trade market. The Sox will be dumping some guys, but I think it will be the guys that weren't coming back in 2014. I think Peavy stays, rios stays, Ramirez stays, Reed stays, Paulie probably stays.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Jun 15, 2013 -> 08:55 AM) I agree the great plays are nice and great, but I rather have a steady shortstop that makes all the routine plays and few a few awesome than the other way around. The awesome plays happen one in ten. You win with steady heads up players, I know thàt is obvious.. I tend to agree, he is very frustrating, and the dissappearance of his power is baffling to me. I remember when they signed him a scout was posting here and said he was Omar Infante with less power. Now he really is. I just think there are more important things to address than SS, at the moment, and it is also a very hard position to find someone better.