caulfield12

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Aug 10, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) And to close so there can be Tebowing after every save. Fans will be used to it already since half of them already do it whenever Robertson escapes one of the hideous jams he typically finds himself in. Bring back the Takatsu Gong. Of course, that wouldn't survive the political correctness police a decade plus later...

Gomez and Rasmus (out of position a bit) likely are the two best CF options this offseason...unless you can conceive of the Royals trading Cain to the Sox next July and KW/JR getting him to sign a huge extension to forgo free agency. That would fit the Sox historical trend of adding name players 2-3 years past their primes. For some reason, Kendrys Morales as DH next season feels about equally likely as Morneau at this point. It all depends on Justin's desire to play for a contender again.

Let's just put it this way. If they (those in the front office) really and truly believe Robertson has been fantastic, then it's no surprise why we are mired in mediocrity. So one has to logically assume Jones, Burdi and returns to health from at least one of Piutnam and Petricka are the real plan for next year...perhaps along with Fulmer. What's not clear is why Robertson is still clogging up the payroll.

Yes, everyone has been put on waivers...everyone. Just a way of assessing value. And you're right, NY might be all in again next year too, in the same sense the White Sox are...but they can at least sell it better with Clint Frazier added to the mix. We've gotten locked into a situation where we are adding more and more 30+ exploding contracts (Shields, Encarnacion, Bautista, McCann, etc.) It just won't work because the payroll will run out first. It's also yet another reason they should have cleared Robertson or Shields for next year...and rolled the dice with Jones, Burdi, etc. Now they're stuck yet again in terms of next year's roster, minus a boost to the $150-175 million range, which would be completely unprecedented.

Have you watched Chapman get hit at 103-104? You can't get away with just one pitch in the majors...we'll see how his other stuff develops. It's back to the philosophy of letting him get beat up a bit (with the Sox) and then he'll be likelier to take coaching advice. It's easy to see Hahn using the Hansen pick as his out...we love Zach's arm a lot, his stuff's just too good right now not to utilize along with our current win now assets this year and going into another contending season in 2017. We have also received a slew of glowing reports on the progress of Alec and believe he'll be ready for the rotation by mid 2018, etc. Right now, we have a really positive situation with competition for the starting rotation and don't have to push any of our young guys like Carson too much because they're all experienced veterans diwn there, even Carlos Rodon with two years under his belt. When, not if, Carlos takes the next step, we'll have one of the best rotations in the majors.

We won't sign Encarnacion...Bautista seems more likely in a one and done scenario. McCann could be ours today with a waiver claim, but that's extremely unlikely. Feels like the solution has to come from Korea (hitter), Japan or Cuba. They're going to have to get a rebound season from someone like Yasiel Puig, with a manager he can actually get along with...maybe not him, but a similar risky player with some amount of reward built in (see Contreras, Carl Everett, Dye and AJ back in 2003-2005). Juan Uribe was also brought on board in similar circumstances after quickly wearing out his welcome in Colorado. Fulmer's not close to ready for the rotation unless 5 mph on his fastball returns.

We can promise Cespedes unlimited golf outings with Hawk on the road...

So now blown saves are only significant if the team loses...not affecting the overall confidence of the team or starting pitchers in any way? By that argument, Danny Wright was a highly valuable of the White Sox rotation when he won 14 games with a 5+ ERA in 2012. You pay David Robertson elite money...you better get something close to that. And with a sub .500 team, he's irrevelant except for soaking up payroll dollars that should first go to catcher, DH and CF.

Would have been better off just sending him back to the Yankees last year...yeah yeah, but we wouldn't have started out 23-10 with Jones as the closer, right? You can just as easily argue Hahn would have had to find multiple options for the pen with no Robertson entering the year, leaving the pen essentially at the same productivity but cheaper in terms of overall cost...freeing up more money for hitting.

Not to mention that blown game against KC that was far from a save situation...

Whoever called that pitch to Escobar needs to have their head examined...

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 9, 2016 -> 08:32 PM) He will hit his innings limit too soon and he will need to be shut down well before the season ends if he is in the rotation. 150 IP?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 9, 2016 -> 08:01 PM) Who was offered for Shields and Gonzalez? Now you sound like Dick Allen. Probably nothing because Hahn would look stupid for dumping Shields for pennies on the dollar and there would better, more appealing options than Gonzalez on the market since nobody overbid for either OR we don't have any internal solutions for the rotation next year.

They're talking $16-17 million per year with Chapman, but a $100 million contract would be completely nuts.

QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 9, 2016 -> 09:22 PM) The Sox are 15-7 when Sale starts. Guess we're not going to get the Cy Young this year as a consolation prize, either.

Don't they have an option on him next year? They don't with Navarro. And since they're unlikely to bid on Ramos against the field, we'll probably end up with him or Suzuki...unless we can pry a SD catcher away (Norris).

The true White Sox charity...guys like Carroll and Coats have a reasonable amount of family security guaranteed for life now.

QUOTE (HeGone7 @ Aug 8, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) I think you bring up a good point, in that, people still truly don't understand how this potential rebuild is different from some of those teams you've mentioned. I'll start out first by saying, you're 100% correct that there is no guarantee a rebuild goes as planned. Sadly, neither have the Sox plans on contending. So let's stop comparing those two as if the alternative has worked out. It hasn't and we don't know how a rebuild will go until we do it. On one side of this argument, you have proven talent on this club. You have some "star attractions" and that means something to fans. Trading them away, leaves you without a face of the organization potentially and your return may never pan out. That is 100% the reality. So it's not unreasonable for people who don't want to rebuild to fear the "worst case scenario" where we lose people and our front office gets garbage in return. Which they have done more times than not. Keeping those guys has negatives as well. As an example, some of these guys are short on their contracts. So they can leave and we may get nothing/draft picks. I see no way this owner pays what Sale and Q will command on an open market (in 3 years no less). They've avoided it forever, and when they finally bit the bullet and went 4 years on a pitcher. It was John Danks. That did not go well. Take that strategy this office has, mix it with questions on Sale's arm and that he is likely to be paid a fortune - I see no way we're touching that. Just my opinion. On the flip side, and this is what I want to hammer home, the Sox rebuilding potential is unlike anything we've really seen before. They're a large market team and a middle of the road payroll. And they have some serious controlled assets. You mentioned 3-5 years away, which is not unrealistic, but it is slightly unfair. You're comparing that model to teams who had to start from scratch. The point of what the Sox would be doing is to get several MLB ready pieces. Dealing for a bunch of 18 year olds, or building through 3 years of top 5 picks isn't what the Sox opportunity is. Think of it as the Cubs and Pirates had to draft a lot of guys to get to where they are. But the Cubs acquired their First Baseman, who was MLB ready, via trade. The "Rizzo" types are what the Sox can be seeking. Now the Cubs brought Rizzo up and he had to wait for the others. The Sox should be able to net several of them, or basically bring as many up as the Cubs have the last year+ (Bryant, Baez, Schwarber, Contreras, etc). So I get people hear "rebuild" and they think it's a long process. In this case, we're fortunate enough to have assets on the big league club that other teams are willing to pay a premium for. We're bypassing, in theory, a few years of this rebuild. A couple things can mess this up: (1) Not having the value we think exists for guys like Abreu (thank god he is starting to play better), Frazier, Eaton, Q, etc. Those guys should be able to net us (1) Elite top 50 type guy each. I think that is conservative for Q and Eaton, potentially on the other 2 as well. Robertson and Melky, I thought would have value but I think the deadline showed us otherwise. So I have little hope for anything "mlb ready" from them. Sale should get us 2-3 minimum IMO. (2) The front office messing this up. This can happen a variety of ways. Bad scouting being one. More important than that is simply the decision making. If the best package you're offered for a Sale, let's say is the Yankees. And their centerpiece of the deal is a guy like Torres. Well, regardless of how talented he may be, he is years away. So in that instance, you'd be correct and we would be slowing our timeline. From everything I've seen/heard, the Sox have been asking for a major premium of MLB ready or existing mlb players. The other piece I feel that is continuously overlooked is the Sox can spend money. This isn't the Marlins organization, or the Rays, or Oakland. If you had any brains as an ownership group/front office, all that payroll you'd be shedding in potential trades - that money needs to go elsewhere. That is how you prove you're serious about contending, or making it even more simple, signing players at positions where you haven't restocked, it will help your team. That means you sign a middle of the road OF, like Austin Jackson, instead of running JB Schuck - who has no real potential - out there. The guys you're acquiring are likely under control for a while, meaning they're inexpensive. There are plenty of guys out there you can sign to still improve your team. In fact, you can be more competitive with what you offer on a contract because of the inexpensive cost all over the field with your youth movement. As you see what pieces have panned out, you can add/subtract from there. If you acquire (2) first baseman and still have Abreu or a DH - that guy can be moved. Much like the Cubs did with a Vogelbach (I think that's his name). You can still move guys to get pieces/stars you may need. I understand this is all "in theory" but that is what we're working with. This needs to be their plan if they want to rebuild quickly and be more competitive. If you really want to go overboard and if the Sox really had brains, you create a revolving door for acquiring prospects during this "rebuild." You take your 1-2 year fliers on relievers, or starters...guys like Rich Hill, etc. Players who either need to boom or bust for their next contract, or guys who teams have longevity concerns about and are forced to take shorter deals (but their talent is still of value to acquire at a deadline). Maybe this is too in-depth for right now, but the point is, the Sox have options. Long story short, "rebuilding" may take 3-5 years like you're saying. However, the opportunity the Sox are presented with is to not only flip their roster and fill it with young talent we haven't seen this organization pump out before, but it's also how quickly that team can be ready to compete. "Opportunity" really is the best word for this and I use it a lot. It isn't a guarantee anything pans out, and we don't know what value we truly have, but point is - this isn't like what you're used to seeing with rebuilds because we're selling off assets that should jump us into year 3 of a typical rebuild. The irony here for those who want to compete with our current group is by not selling and continuing to not win (or lose enough to get a valuable pick), we may be in a scary place in a few years with what you're speculating in a rebuild. Minimal assets to sell, less coming back in return for those assets, and a long rebuild from there. This is why I'm heavily in the camp of selling. Second to final paragraph. We've heard every spring training for three years now "take a flier" guys like Paulino and Belisario could be dealt at the break. Some of it has been bad luck (injuries to Crain and Floyd), or injuries such as Jackson or Avila (really too long to count) but we haven't managed to turn many of those types into gold like we used to. For every Phil Humber we hold onto too long, there have been another five Bonifacios, Teahens and Beckhams with even less value than when they were acquired. Even the classic names like DeAza, Santos and Reed were't turned into anything that helped the big league club. Conor Gillaspie would be another fine example...someone who is exposed long term and whose value, however negligible it was, was wiped out because the Sox don't have any other options from the minors than overplaying him. Even this year, they could have dealt Shields or Gonzalez and didn't pull the trigger, for whatever reason. Last year, one of the first cuts was Junior Guerra in October. Just lots of questionable decision making. To protect who, at that time?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 09:53 PM) "Many successful seasons"? During the last 36 years? How "many"? By my count, only five, given the team has only made it to the postseason five times during that period. Making it to the playoffs is what defines "success" in baseball, and nothing less. At least that's my point of view, and one shared by no less than our ace starter and perennial All Star, Chris Sale. He's on record saying he hasn't played in a "meaningful game" in his entire career since the Sox haven't made it to the postseason since he joined the team way back in 2012. So you are, of course, entitled to call a season "special" under your own terms, but successful? That is making it to the postseason, and nothing else. 2010...not 12

Drafting? Who? I hope it's not all based on Anderson, Rodon and Fulmer...along with Adams. Because of this year's first three? Hmmm...

Avi for CF 2017

All you have to do is skip to the final two paragraphs...and/or have an abiding belief they can replicate all the trades Epstein and Hoyer made over the course of 2-3 years.

All you have to do is skip to the final two paragraphs...and/or have a believe they can replicate all the trades Epstein and Hoyer made over the course of 2-3 years.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 4, 2016 -> 01:02 PM) Since 1980 Name BB% WAR Garret Anderson 4.70% 24 Mark Grudzielan 4.80% 23.2 Frank White 4.90% 23.1 A.J. Pierzynski 3.90% 23.1 Erick Aybar 4.80% 18.8 Alexei Ramirez 4.80% 16.8 Carlos Baerga 4.90% 15.7 Rey Sanchez 4.40% 14.6 Sand Alomar Jr. 4.40% 13.2 Ozzie Guillen 3.40% 13.1 Starlin Castro 4.90% 11.3 Corey Patterson 4.60% 10.8 Alcides Escobar 4.10% 10.1 Most of those guys also have much higher contact rates....after Anderson. Ironic that Alexei's on that same list, with Ozzie. Lots of ex Cubs and Sox. Almost all AL Central players. Weird.

Royals fighting to box us out of a Top Ten pick without Davis at the back end... Dont know if we can get there or not. That would give Hahn a ton of protection again for not pursuing any top tier free agents...preserving draft picks.