thxfrthmmrs

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 08:15 PM) Stole this from white sox Dave It's already updated on MLB.com http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=prospects Top 10 is looking hella nice.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 04:10 PM) We had good pitching. That wasn't the problem. Seriously? We still had 17 starts by guys like Shields, Latos and Danks (I will leave out Gonzalez as he was actually decent). If we replace those with quality pitchers in the back end, we easily could have 4-5 more wins in 2016. We had quality pitching, but it was top heavy. Our bullpen sucked. In Rodon, Giolito, Kopech, Lopez, Burdi, Fulmer, Hansen, Dunning, Adams and Stephens we have a bunch of guys with number 1-3 starter potential, and a couple more solid BP arms. If you could field a rotation like that, you all of a sudden have the rotation quality and quantity of the Mets or the Indians, whose offense does not impress me. We're not done yet, we still have Q, who could easily get us 2-3 high end positional prospects, Frazier and Jones who could get us a couple more. Add it to a core of Moncada, Anderson, Collins, and Basabe then we have an offense that's easily better than the Mets or Indians, FA signing not yet considered.

Seriously, would a return like this be possible 10 years ago, without popularizing advanced stats?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I don't get all the Top 10 mentions for Tilson I keep seeing, here and elsewhere. I have a hard time putting him higher than the 15-20 range, probably lower. Apparently I'm far lower on him that most. And I still think Adams is no longer deserving of a slot in the top 5 or 6. In fact with the new names, he's not in my Top 10. Agreed on both, but sadly off top of my head I don't see many justifiable options other than moving up Stephen, Call, or Fisher.

BTW did anyone catch Keith Law's interview yesterday calling Moncada a "top 10 or 15 prospect", instead of top 5 or one of the best prospects. I see that he's either applying his White Sox curve to Moncada or he's heavily penalizing him for his 19 AB flunk in September.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 02:02 PM) My point was Sale got away with a lot of s*** that is unacceptable because of his talent. Obviously sports provide superstar treatment, but people need to stop acting like its excusable, because if one player does it and it's insane, it's insane for all players. What other s***?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 01:55 PM) Asking a team NOT to have a jersey because he didn't like it sure sounds like the superstar treatment to me. I'm specifically responding to the repercussion Q mentioned for Lawrie or Anderson. I didn't hear Sale saying I'm Chris freaking Sale, you cannot cut me or suspend me for my actions.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 01:42 PM) It was on the calendar for months. The apologists for that episode are ridiculous. If Anderson went nuts and did that he'd have been sent to AAA, someone like Lawrie would probably get cut. Does not mean he got to try on the jersey months before. And without knowing the details behind the scene, who knows Sale didn't bring up this issue before and FO chose to ignore, so he went the extreme? I am saying he's a rebel and a hard head. But there is a fine line between that and an "asshat" that being thrown around here. And come on, it's like you're comparing Jimmy Butler or D Wade to Denzel Valentine or Doug McDermott here. In every sport, your best players are always treated differently by THE TEAM. I didn't hear Sale asking for superstar treatment here.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 01:27 PM) What did Ken Williams do that made him an asshole? He was responding to a complaint from in the locker room. And if you cut up an entire wardrobe of jerseys before a game because you don't like the color, you're a jerk. That's not the story. He cut up the jersey because they weren't comfortable to pitch in, it would affect his performance. He complained to Brooks Hoyer and the FO but they won't listen. Sale felt that the management was too focused on marketing and jersey sales, not winning or the baseball game itself. He rebelled and cut up the jersey. To each their own, I don't think I, or other fans, need to hate or hold a grudge on him for this.

I just don't see them parting with Turner. So this has gotta be a bait again for teams like Astros and Cardinals trying to make a move for these two.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 01:09 PM) It's just White Sox fan mentality. They have to find something wrong with their nice things. Sale is pretty flawless on the field, so when he calls that asshole KW an asshole, the guy is a total douchebag. The same thing happens with Eaton. There was some anonymous comment when he was traded here how it was addition by subtraction for AZ because he was cocky. Eaton addressed it right away, said he was surprised anyone felt like that, apologized if he offended anyone. Thought he got along with everyone OK, said he had to play with a chip on his shoulder and a cocky attitude to be successful. He is successful, and even though he has been here 3 years, no one plays harder, he now has attitude issues, you know from that report in AZ. He's a clubhouse cancer, no one can stand him even though they made him the player rep, and he's pretty certain to have a public meltdown if the Sox trade away most of their core but keep him. It's some of the goofiest stuff I have ever read. And I've read most of Caulfield's posts. LOL at the bold part. Not everyone can be like Buehrle or Konerko. If you look closely every player on the team has their flaws, some stories you just don't hear. I don't expect pro athletes to be perfects human beings. I don't know Sale nor Eaton off the field, but they both busted their ass off for the team and seem like pretty cool dudes based on articles or interviews. That's all I care about.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Dec 7, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) How about Sale cursing out Kenny Williams during the Drake LaRoche incident? Is Chris Sale a a hard head? Does he stand by what he believes in? Is he a rebel? I think yes, he rebels against management for what he believes in, but I don't think that makes him an asshole. Did he punch a teammate in the face? Did he beat his wife or sleep with another teammate's? Did he get away with murder charges like other pro athletes have? Or does he have the facial expression of one Conor Gillaspie... I didn't think so. Unless people have more specific evidence or know him personally I think it's silly to declare Sale an asshole now that he's with another org. By all accounts I think he's a pretty cool dude based on how he interacted with the fans (some on this forum had first hand experience), the way he stuck his neck out for a kid, and his post game interviews.

Unless I'm missing something here, besides the jersey cutting incident here, what other instances can we point to to conclude Chris Sale is an "asshat"?

This kid has the talent to break franchise records, win multiple Cy Young's, anchor the rotation for a playoff team. I wish he could've been a White Sox lifer (I will overlook the maturity issues) because it was such a joy watching him pitch. Unfortunately for him and the team his individual success has amounted to absolutely nothing in terms of team success. It's a shame to see him go.

Voted Benintendi. The cliche here is time will tell. But for now, even Red Sox fans were relieved that they gave up Moncada, not Benintendi. High ceiling but lower floor is Moncada.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 01:59 PM) He wasn't overused. Sale and Quintana have thrown roughly the same number of innings over the past few seasons, yet Sale is the one who's been mediocre in September and has had to alter his pitching style to keep his arm fresh. It's not debatable. Sale was second in the league in pitches per start behind Verlander, has throw over 110 pitches 16 times! (that's half of his starts) this season, to only 7 starts for Q.

Apparently our targets were Betts and Benintendi + in July, that's why no deal. Buster Olney ✔ @Buster_ESPN White Sox get a big haul from BOS -- and it's a step down for what they asked for in July, which included Betts and Benintendi.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 01:55 PM) The flip side is how many games did Sale demand to stay in? It'll be interesting seeing Sale without Coop, Herm and the Sox PR protecting him. Our bullpen blew saves left and right last season. I think he'll learn to focus on the bigger picture now that he knows he'll be needed in October. And if Red Sox are smart, they will hand him with care.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 01:47 PM) If I was a Boston fan I'd be happy with this deal. It would suck to lose Moncada but he's far from proven and you're getting a bonafide ace who dominated the AL. Sure fire all star and probable Cy Young winner. The rest of the prospects are too far away from the majors to be overly concerned about. They have potential but are total wild cards. Both are still at best 3 years away from making any real contribution. This is from the Red Sox forum (not sure how well they know these prospects).

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 01:49 PM) That looks great until you look at Sale's September splits. Cooper had to ask Sale to not throw as hard this past season just so that he wouldn't put up a 1.4 WHIP again down the stretch. One has to wonder how much of an asset Sale is going to be in October, and that's one of the reasons why I'm fine with dealing him. To be fair, he never had the opportunity to prepare for October. I also think he was overused for better part of the season, constantly throwing 110-120 pitches a game during the summer.

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 01:42 PM) The deal obviously largely comes down to whether Moncada pans out. Even if he's a 3-4 WAR player under team control for 6 years (not crazy at a premium position like 2B or 3B), that's a decent baseline. That's a big target for a guy who has trouble with contact and does not have a strong glove. He needs to improve his contact as next step for his development, I'm not overly optimistic Sox farm or ML staff have a track record of doing that.

This one actually hurts more for Boston, the total cost for Sale might be much higher than the $40 M surface value. Boston Sports Info ‏@bostonsportsinf 1h1 hour ago Remember..remember to add the $63 million it cost Sox to sign Yoan to the assets to get Chris Sale

Boston Sports Info ‏@bostonsportsinf 1h1 hour ago Chris Sale AL ranks since 2012 (min 100 GS) ERA - 1st WHIP - 1st CG - 1st SO - 1st OPS against - 1st alrighty then

This is from the Red Sox forum: Most feel that they underpaid for this deal (does not happen with normal Red Sox meatheads) They are also skeptical if Moncada will ever figure out how to hit the breaking pitches, strikeout numbers is a concern.

1. Does this give us a top 10 as it stands? I think we would be in the mid 20's before this trade. 2. I would have much preferred a Benintendi and Devers package over Moncada and Kopech, because a) would preferred two position player as headliners, b)the latter are bigger question marks, while the former may have a slightly lower ceiling, but they are much safer options. Anytime you're trading a superstar like Sale, you need to have surefire returns that's big league ready. I am not as sold on Moncada as I'm with Benintendi.