oldsox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 I think Oprah should interview Heimlich publicly, ask the tough questions, and then we will all know more about the situation. Draft and interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Just now, Dam8610 said: Do you have any evidence that he's guilty? I mean, I'd start there, but that's me. Do you have any evidence that he’s innocent? Because if the answer is no, that’s probably why the majority of us want to stay away from drafting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 16 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: I said "meathead reasons", which calling someone a child molester and saying you don't want them drafted because of that when there's a good chance they're innocent and even if they're not, there's a good chance of there being a good reason why it happened and will never happen again qualifies as a meathead reason to me. Dam, you’re one of my favorite posters on this board and I respected your initial position on this topic, but now it just seems like you’re willing to give this guy free passes all around all in the name of value. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to not want to touch this guy with a 10 foot pole, just as I think an argument can be made for giving the guy a second chance. I’m fine with you wanting to select him, I just think it feels a bit cheap to presume his innocence as a reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Dam8610 said: Do you have any evidence that he's guilty? I mean, I'd start there, but that's me. Yeah, he pleaded guilty. That, to me, is more than random speculation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: Do you have any evidence that he's guilty? I mean, I'd start there, but that's me. A girl and her mother said he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Just now, turnin' two said: Yeah, he pleaded guilty. That, to me, is more than random speculation. Do you have any evidence he actually committed the act? Pleading guilty in a court of law and committing a crime are two vastly different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 6 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: Expecting it would be, that's why it's called upside, not expected outcome. As a 20 year old (same age as Madrigal last year) in A and A+ ball, Altuve hit 15HRs, 5 3B and 20 2Bs and had a SLG% of .591. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: Do you have any evidence he actually committed the act? Pleading guilty in a court of law and committing a crime are two vastly different things. You are being ridiculous. Of course I don't and you know I don't. I live in Illinois, never heard of this kid until last year, and am not a private investigator. And while they are two different things, there are consequences to pleading guilty in a court of law, one of which, is essentially admitting guilt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Dam, you’re one of my favorite posters on this board and I respected your initial position on this topic, but now it just seems like you’re willing to give this guy free passes all around all in the name of value. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to not want to touch this guy with a 10 foot pole, just as I think an argument can be made for giving the guy a second chance. I’m fine with you wanting to select him, I just think it feels a bit cheap to presume his innocence as a reason why. I can agree to disagree on picking Heimlich, but I'm going to go with the attorney's assessment of his guilt or innocence and I happen to know that our legal system is designed to screw innocent people into plea deals. I don't think something so easily disputed should be taken as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, turnin' two said: As a 20 year old (same age as Madrigal last year) in A and A+ ball, Altuve hit 15HRs, 5 3B and 20 2Bs and had a SLG% of .591. Yeah I don’t think he’ll tap into the power altuve has, I do think he can tap into more power however and be something like 2016 Adam Eaton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Just now, bmags said: Yeah I don’t think he’ll tap into the power altuve has, I do think he can tap into more power however and be something like 2016 Adam Eaton That’s exactly the type of offensive profile I’m envisioning and that’s a hell of a player when you factor in his defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: That’s exactly the type of offensive profile I’m envisioning and that’s a hell of a player when you factor in his defense. And health, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 49 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Not when they have overwhelming evidence that suggests they are innocent. This isnt true at all when it comes to this type of case. The only evidence the prosecutor had was the testimony of a child. There were a lot of different factors here, but one of the main ones was that his father was in a custody battle of his other children. By pleading guilty his father was able to keep the children. If he had gone to trial and lost, his whole family would have been torn apart. Youre acting like a 15 year old is going to go against the advice of their attorney and their parents. That just isnt realistic, especially when they all tell you that in 5 years it will be over and youll never have to worry about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: Do you have any evidence he actually committed the act? Pleading guilty in a court of law and committing a crime are two vastly different things. Pleading guilty means you re guilty. Pretty solid proof. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Pleading guilty means you re guilty. Pretty solid proof. Guilty doesnt mean you did it. And I know youve argued this type of thing in the buster many times about defendants who were convicted wrongfully. I think this is the specific case: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/20/nyregion/5-exonerated-in-central-park-jogger-case-are-to-settle-suit-for-40-million.html (edit) Now imagine those guys had been given an offer "plea guilty and youll get 5 years probation, it then gets sealed and expunged." Not a bad deal when the other option was they went to jail for multiple years. (edit 2) And I dont want to clog up this thread, so basically there are 2 worlds you can live in. World 1: The justice system is perfect, innocent people are never convicted or World 2: The justice system is imperfect and innocent people are wrongfully convicted. If you live in world 2 than you have to understand why given the circumstances he would have taken the deal even though he was innocent. That is not to say he is 100% innocent or guilty, just that it is understandable why an innocent person would take a deal. Edited June 2, 2018 by Soxbadger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: That is not to say he is 100% innocent or guilty, just that it is understandable why an innocent person would take a deal. I would say it is also understandable to say you wouldn't want your favorite team to draft him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Guilty doesnt mean you did it. And I know youve argued this type of thing in the buster many times about defendants who were convicted wrongfully. I think this is the specific case: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/20/nyregion/5-exonerated-in-central-park-jogger-case-are-to-settle-suit-for-40-million.html (edit) Now imagine those guys had been given an offer "plea guilty and youll get 5 years probation, it then gets sealed and expunged." Not a bad deal when the other option was they went to jail for multiple years. (edit 2) And I dont want to clog up this thread, so basically there are 2 worlds you can live in. World 1: The justice system is perfect, innocent people are never convicted or World 2: The justice system is imperfect and innocent people are wrongfully convicted. If you live in world 2 than you have to understand why given the circumstances he would have taken the deal even though he was innocent. That is not to say he is 100% innocent or guilty, just that it is understandable why an innocent person would take a deal. I get it but pleading guilty to this crime if it gets out is suicide. His brother still seems to think he is guilty. Personally, I don't think anyone could possibly get to know him well enough to draft him. Even if you are 99.99999 percent sure he is innocent, he proves you wrong and does it again, there would be no excuse. There are a lot of false confessions without a doubt, I just don't see how anyone can buy that this one is. If he wasn't a prospect no one would think anything else. The only proof anyone has he didn't do it is his denial now. Let some other team deal with the distraction adding him to an organization would bring. Edited June 2, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, turnin' two said: I would say it is also understandable to say you wouldn't want your favorite team to draft him. Ive said the Sox shouldnt draft him due to pr. 7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I get it but pleading guilty to this crime if it gets out is suicide. His brother still seems to think he is guilty. Personally, I don't think anyone could possibly get to know him well enough to draft him. Even if you are 99.99999 percent sure he is innocent, he proves you wrong and does it again, there would be no excuse. There are a lot of false confessions without a doubt, I just don't see how anyone can buy that this one is. If he wasn't a prospect no one would think anything else. The only proof anyone has he didn't do it is his denial now. And if it goes to trial and he loses its suicide. If it goes to trial and he wins its suicide. Once you are accused of this type of crime its a life long stain. That is the reality. He came really close to this deal really being great for him. But thats life. This isnt a false confession. This is potentially an innocent person taking a plea deal because of the totality of the circumstances. Its easy as adults to try and say "id never taken the deal", but he was 15. All of the people in his life were pressuring him to take the deal. Who knows what was said, who knows if his parents didnt imply they wouldnt pay for his lawyer if he didnt plea. I dont know, no one does. But the justice system is full of grey. And as someone who believes in world 2, I cant say with 100% certainty that his version isnt true. The only impartial opinion on the subject found him to likely be innocent. That holds weight with me. Edited June 2, 2018 by Soxbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 For those that wanted to watch Singer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Ive said the Sox shouldnt draft him due to pr. And if it goes to trial and he loses its suicide. If it goes to trial and he wins its suicide. Once you are accused of this type of crime its a life long stain. That is the reality. He came really close to this deal really being great for him. But thats life. This isnt a false confession. This is potentially an innocent person taking a plea deal because of the totality of the circumstances. Its easy as adults to try and say "id never taken the deal", but he was 15. All of the people in his life were pressuring him to take the deal. Who knows what was said, who knows if his parents didnt imply they wouldnt pay for his lawyer if he didnt plea. I dont know, no one does. But the justice system is full of grey. And as someone who believes in world 2, I cant say with 100% certainty that his version isnt true. The only impartial opinion on the subject found him to likely be innocent. That holds weight with me. I am an Iowa grad and if you read the story about Pierre Pierce, although not messing with a child it is very similar. He was originally accused of sexual assault. Thrown off the team, he eventually pled down to a lesser charge with no jail time and record expunged if he kept his nose clean. Always claimed he was innocent to is lawyer and coach, he was reinstated. Many were outraged but were told there was a lot about the case that never came out, basically saying he just had consensual sex. People were still upset but he was playing well, then one night he beat up another girl and flashed a knife. His college career was over and he went to jail. Steve Alford to this day hasn't been able to live it down, even though he did not rape or batter anyone. He believed what his player was telling him including taking the plea even though he was innocent. I just dont think it is worth finding out the hard way you have been had. And it is always going to be there. Edited June 2, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I am an Iowa grad and if you read the story about Pierre Pierce, although not messing with a child it is very similar. He was originally accused of sexual assault. Thrown off the team, he eventually pled down to a lesser charge with no jail time and record expunged if he kept his nose clean. Always claimed he was innocent to is lawyer and coach, he was reinstated. Many were outraged but were told there was a lot about the case that never came out, basically saying he just had consensual sex. People were still upset but he was playing well, then one night he beat up another girl and flashed a knife. His college career was over and he went to jail. Steve Alford to this day hasn't been able to live it down, even though he did not rape or batter anyone. He believed what his player was telling him including taking the plea even though he was innocent. Well anecdotal evidence clearly Trumps scientific evidence. One person ever had an issue with sexual behavior after a guilty plea under entirely different circumstances, so no player ever could have an issue like Heimlich's and be an okay human being and good baseball player. Glad that got cleared up. In other news, I really wish I knew how to change font color on the new board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I am an Iowa grad and if you read the story about Pierre Pierce, although not messing with a child it is very similar. He was originally accused of sexual assault. Thrown off the team, he eventually pled down to a lesser charge with no jail time and record expunged if he kept his nose clean. Always claimed he was innocent to is lawyer and coach, he was reinstated. Many were outraged but were told there was a lot about the case that never came out, basically saying he just had consensual sex. People were still upset but he was playing well, then one night he beat up another girl and flashed a knife. His college career was over and he went to jail. Steve Alford to this day hasn't been able to live it down, even though he did not rape or batter anyone. He believed what his player was telling him including taking the plea even though he was innocent. I just dont think it is worth finding out the hard way you have been had. And it is always going to be there. Which is why I have no problem with the White Sox passing on him. Even if I could see the future and know with 100% certainty hed never commit another crime, id still say that the pr hit is likely too great. Just interesting to see how people react and dismiss the idea that someone innocent could cut a deal. Especially a 15 year old kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Soxbadger said: Which is why I have no problem with the White Sox passing on him. Even if I could see the future and know with 100% certainty hed never commit another crime, id still say that the pr hit is likely too great. Just interesting to see how people react and dismiss the idea that someone innocent could cut a deal. Especially a 15 year old kid. The population at large is quick to jump to conclusions and speak in absolutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 What happened to our precious draft thread 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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