chitownsportsfan Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 12:03 PM) I think it pretty obvious that the Sox are going to get a high pick. However, there is much more value in the players that can be acquired for Quintana, Jones, Robertson, Frazier, Melky, Jennings, Gonzalez, Holland, Putnam, someone taking Shields contract, than there is is wanting all those players to contribute to a 60 win team. The players that can be acquired on a whole for the current veterans far outweighs the difference between the 3rd pick and the 7th pick, IMO. We need those aforementioned players to have a good first few months. Frazier pulling his head out of his rear would be a good start. Yea I agree with this, mostly. That said, there is a pretty big difference between say the 2nd pick and the 10th pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:03 AM) I think it pretty obvious that the Sox are going to get a high pick. However, there is much more value in the players that can be acquired for Quintana, Jones, Robertson, Frazier, Melky, Jennings, Gonzalez, Holland, Putnam, someone taking Shields contract, than there is is wanting all those players to contribute to a 60 win team. The players that can be acquired on a whole for the current veterans far outweighs the difference between the 3rd pick and the 7th pick, IMO. We need those aforementioned players to have a good first few months. Frazier pulling his head out of his rear would be a good start. And you've said this 8 million times in a bunch of different threads. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion but this is a thread for people who want the higher draft pick, they're allowed to have that opinion just like you're allowed to have yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soha Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:03 AM) I think it pretty obvious that the Sox are going to get a high pick. However, there is much more value in the players that can be acquired for Quintana, Jones, Robertson, Frazier, Melky, Jennings, Gonzalez, Holland, Putnam, someone taking Shields contract, than there is is wanting all those players to contribute to a 60 win team. The players that can be acquired on a whole for the current veterans far outweighs the difference between the 3rd pick and the 7th pick, IMO. We need those aforementioned players to have a good first few months. Frazier pulling his head out of his rear would be a good start. Collectively there is more value, sure. Individually, no. I'm sorry, but Quintana isn't going to bring back a Chris Sale type return. And it probably won't even be close. I think some of us will need to grasp that at some point. Teams just don't want to part with superstar potential prospects, except in rare cases like when guys like Chris Sale are made available to trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:03 AM) I think it pretty obvious that the Sox are going to get a high pick. However, there is much more value in the players that can be acquired for Quintana, Jones, Robertson, Frazier, Melky, Jennings, Gonzalez, Holland, Putnam, someone taking Shields contract, than there is is wanting all those players to contribute to a 60 win team. The players that can be acquired on a whole for the current veterans far outweighs the difference between the 3rd pick and the 7th pick, IMO. We need those aforementioned players to have a good first few months. Frazier pulling his head out of his rear would be a good start. Think of it this way. If Avi Garcia really turns into anything close to what he could be, what would a player like that be worth on the open market? Is that difference worth more than the difference between say #6 and #1 in the draft rounds? I would say the trade value is absolutely higher, based on what we have seen players go for in the trade market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:31 AM) And you've said this 8 million times in a bunch of different threads. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion but this is a thread for people who want the higher draft pick, they're allowed to have that opinion just like you're allowed to have yours. Of course they're allowed to have that opinion. That doesn't make it any more logical, or mean those who disagree with it can't say otherwise. This is a message board, no? By virtue of the lineup the Sox are trotting out there every day, they're going to lose a bunch of games. I think we all agree with that. It's going to get more ugly when the guys I mentioned hopefully get moved for something valuable. But we're going to need them to produce for that to happen. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (Soha @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 12:34 PM) Collectively there is more value, sure. Individually, no. I'm sorry, but Quintana isn't going to bring back a Chris Sale type return. And it probably won't even be close. I think some of us will need to grasp that at some point. Teams just don't want to part with superstar potential prospects, except in rare cases like when guys like Chris Sale are made available to trade. That's where you're wrong. Maybe not quite the return, but it will be in the same ballpark. Q is 90% of sale and is signed for another year. Their overall surplus value is similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soha Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:55 AM) That's where you're wrong. Maybe not quite the return, but it will be in the same ballpark. Q is 90% of sale and is signed for another year. Their overall surplus value is similar. Man do I hope I'm wrong on this, but I doubt it. We'll find out this trading deadline. We've already seen a number of teams balk at that type of return (which we assume the Sox are demanding). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (Soha @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:34 AM) Collectively there is more value, sure. Individually, no. I'm sorry, but Quintana isn't going to bring back a Chris Sale type return. And it probably won't even be close. I think some of us will need to grasp that at some point. Teams just don't want to part with superstar potential prospects, except in rare cases like when guys like Chris Sale are made available to trade. So far at least, this has held up to be true. Sale and Eaton both went quickly on the trade market. The Sox got a huge price, and got it almost immediately. Q has sat on the market all winter long, as as far as we can tell, the Sox aren't even asking for as much as they were with Sale, and still haven't gotten it paid by anyone. In fact, as far as we can tell, teams are still not willing to pay that reduced price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:55 AM) That's where you're wrong. Maybe not quite the return, but it will be in the same ballpark. Q is 90% of sale and is signed for another year. Their overall surplus value is similar. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 12:20 PM) So far at least, this has held up to be true. Sale and Eaton both went quickly on the trade market. The Sox got a huge price, and got it almost immediately. Q has sat on the market all winter long, as as far as we can tell, the Sox aren't even asking for as much as they were with Sale, and still haven't gotten it paid by anyone. In fact, as far as we can tell, teams are still not willing to pay that reduced price. That, or the Sox just haven't loved what has been offered yet The Q hammer will fall eventually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 01:12 PM) That, or the Sox just haven't loved what has been offered yet The Q hammer will fall eventually Which means the market isn't nearly as good as the Sox think it is, which is kind of the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I wrote this about Trading Quintana if anyone is interested: https://www.bagadonutssports.com/blog/2017/...lding-white-sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 12:43 PM) Which means the market isn't nearly as good as the Sox think it is, which is kind of the point. Isnt the fact that albies has been offered already say that we can get value similar to sale? Also Glasnow... Both top 10 prospects. I think we are just being picky about what we want back for our last BIG piece. There is no rush to make a deal, especially if we think his value will increase at the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (yesterday333 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 03:45 PM) Isnt the fact that albies has been offered already say that we can get value similar to sale? Also Glasnow... Both top 10 prospects. I think we are just being picky about what we want back for our last BIG piece. There is no rush to make a deal, especially if we think his value will increase at the deadline. If the Pirates offer really was that, it is absolutely telling that the White Sox were able to get both Moncada and Kopech, plus a Basabe from Boston, yet no other team with a top rated farm system is willing to offer their best position player for Q. No Meadows. No Bergman. No Torres. No Swanson or Matain. That right there shows the market believes there is a pretty large difference between Q and Sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 03:50 PM) If the Pirates offer really was that, it is absolutely telling that the White Sox were able to get both Moncada and Kopech, plus a Basabe from Boston, yet no other team with a top rated farm system is willing to offer their best position player for Q. No Meadows. No Bergman. No Torres. No Swanson or Matain. That right there shows the market believes there is a pretty large difference between Q and Sale. None of those players...yet Remember Torres was dealt recently from the Cubs when they were in contention and really needed Chapman to solidify the back of their bullpen...a similar situation could happen at the deadline when a contender needs a starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 04:02 PM) None of those players...yet Remember Torres was dealt recently from the Cubs when they were in contention and really needed Chapman to solidify the back of their bullpen...a similar situation could happen at the deadline when a contender needs a starter Yet Chris Sale got those kind of players right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 02:50 PM) If the Pirates offer really was that, it is absolutely telling that the White Sox were able to get both Moncada and Kopech, plus a Basabe from Boston, yet no other team with a top rated farm system is willing to offer their best position player for Q. No Meadows. No Bergman. No Torres. No Swanson or Matain. That right there shows the market believes there is a pretty large difference between Q and Sale. we weren't getting swanson or bregman... even for sale. those teams are depending on them in the majors this season and that makes them more valuable. nyy isn't competing this year so why give up your top prospect and pit is stubborn and depends on prospects. its a little more complicated than just throwing out the top names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (yesterday333 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 04:23 PM) we weren't getting swanson or bregman... even for sale. those teams are depending on them in the majors this season and that makes them more valuable. nyy isn't competing this year so why give up your top prospect and pit is stubborn and depends on prospects. its a little more complicated than just throwing out the top names. We wouldn't have gotten Moncada for Q either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 11:55 AM) That's where you're wrong. Maybe not quite the return, but it will be in the same ballpark. Q is 90% of sale and is signed for another year. Their overall surplus value is similar. I still disagree with this. Quintana is not viewed anywhere near the value of Sale, otherwise a deal would have been made. People keep saying it but the lack of a deal indicates otherwise. Edit: I should have read some of the subsequent posts. I'm going my answer to: Yeah! What he said. Edited April 10, 2017 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 04:02 PM) None of those players...yet Remember Torres was dealt recently from the Cubs when they were in contention and really needed Chapman to solidify the back of their bullpen...a similar situation could happen at the deadline when a contender needs a starter Torres however is far away from the MLB. To be considered equal to the Sale deal, the primary piece would need to be close to MLB ready. Torres was not. He is much more of a question just due to the fact of how far he is from the MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 03:50 PM) If the Pirates offer really was that, it is absolutely telling that the White Sox were able to get both Moncada and Kopech, plus a Basabe from Boston, yet no other team with a top rated farm system is willing to offer their best position player for Q. No Meadows. No Bergman. No Torres. No Swanson or Matain. That right there shows the market believes there is a pretty large difference between Q and Sale. It's entirely possible Boston was the only team willing to trade a *premium* position prospect for Sale or Q. We'll never know for sure, but nothing that was reported to me suggests the Sox could have gotten Bregman or Swanson in a deal for Sale. Prior to the Boston trade being agreed to it looked like Sale was heading to Washington in a deal headlined by Victor Robles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 04:28 PM) We wouldn't have gotten Moncada for Q either. Nope. Just Benetendi at the time from reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 If we are bad enough to contend for the top pick, that means none of our guys will have much trade value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 05:37 PM) That's not even kinda true. For this team to be in contention for the #1 pick, that likely means winning 50 some games. It's hard to believe that any of the assets we'd be looking to trade outside of Quintana, and perhaps Jones and Robertson would have any value in that scenario. Getting meaningful assets for Frazier, Melky and onwards down the roster is going to be very important to progress this rebuild in any significant manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Apr 10, 2017 -> 05:53 PM) For this team to be in contention for the #1 pick, that likely means winning 50 some games. It's hard to believe that any of the assets we'd be looking to trade outside of Quintana, and perhaps Jones and Robertson would have any value in that scenario. Getting meaningful assets for Frazier, Melky and onwards down the roster is going to be very important to progress this rebuild in any significant manner. That seems like a reasonable hypothesis, but depending on when we trade these assets, we may lose a lot more games after. Also, we will probably be worse next year and get another high pick. Edited April 10, 2017 by Sox-35th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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