zach collins

[Chicago White Sox]

Interesting to me that he was chosen to play in the futures game. Has to be solely because of his defense.

Last I checked he was like 18th in OPS in the Carolina League as a catcher. I get that his batting average sucks, but let's not ignore his other offensive contributions. He hasn't been a terrible offensive player this year, he's just performed below expectations.

[oldsox]

Interesting to me that he was chosen to play in the futures game. Has to be solely because of his defense.

Maybe there are very few catching prospects.

[fathom]

Interesting to me that he was chosen to play in the futures game. Has to be solely because of his defense.

 

Reputation

[Dick Allen]

I love these logical fallacies. I see them all the time on the Bulls RealGM board. Hey, look, one time a player came out of nowhere to be really good so that must mean this guy that also sucks will become just like that one guy that one time!

 

 

DA does it constantly here. So does Hawk.

If you paid attention, which you don't, you would have noticed that he asked for an example of a player with similar numbers who became a good player. For a guy who critiques posters left and right, maybe you should look at yourself.

 

And I do it constanty? Uh no. more BS from you. I thought you had me on ignore. Now you seem to incorrectly know what I post.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Jake]

His ability to take walks is a major, plus-plus tool that ought not be ignored.

[oldsox]

His ability to take walks is a major, plus-plus tool that ought not be ignored.

Will that same skill be utilized at higher levels? Don't you think he will be challenged more by pitchers if and when he gets to AA?

 

If he were hitting .300 instead of .200, with power, then you have a point.

[steveno89]

His ability to take walks is a major, plus-plus tool that ought not be ignored.

 

His ability to draw walks is a good thing, no doubt. It remains to be seen how well that translates vs more advanced pitching in the upper minors though?

 

He is going to have to hit better than .200 to be any sort of MLB factor

[Quin]

If Collins were hitting .300 with everything else being the same we'd be talking about a Top 20 prospect.

 

I swear there is no pleasing this board or expectation of patience.

[QuickJones81]

If Collins were hitting .300 with everything else being the same we'd be talking about a Top 20 prospect.

 

I swear there is no pleasing this board or expectation of patience.

 

I feel like this year is especially bad in this regard. Typically it's high hopes for low talent. Now that we have real talent everyone expects greatness out of every at bat, anything less and they are not a prospect anymore. Prospects are a roller coaster. If you can't handle the ups and downs without swinging wildly emotionally then get off.

Edited July 3, 2017 by QuickJones81

[turnin' two]

If Collins were hitting .300 with everything else being the same we'd be talking about a Top 20 prospect.

 

I swear there is no pleasing this board or expectation of patience.

 

 

Yeah, well, he is hitting 100 points below that level. Walks are great and all, but if a guy doesn't show the ability to hit, pitchers are just going to attack him, and the walks will decline then disappear. He needs to hit. By no means am I calling him a bust or anything like that, it is his first full season of pro ball and he has time. But he has to hit. For a guy that was billed as an advanced college bat, it is a bit concerning to see him struggle to hit in his second go round in A-ball. If he were doing what he did last year (.258/.418/.467), most people would be happy with him even though it isn't progress. To this point, this season has been a step backwards (offensively) , and in terms of player development, that is a failure. Yes, he has gotten better defensively, but defensive catchers are a dime a dozen, it is that bat that could make him special. The bat needs to start showing some progress, it is scary that he has shown that he may be better suited for Kanny than Birmingham.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, well, he is hitting 100 points below that level. Walks are great and all, but if a guy doesn't show the ability to hit, pitchers are just going to attack him, and the walks will decline then disappear. He needs to hit. By no means am I calling him a bust or anything like that, it is his first full season of pro ball and he has time. But he has to hit. For a guy that was billed as an advanced college bat, it is a bit concerning to see him struggle to hit in his second go round in A-ball. If he were doing what he did last year (.258/.418/.467), most people would be happy with him even though it isn't progress. To this point, this season has been a step backwards (offensively) , and in terms of player development, that is a failure. Yes, he has gotten better defensively, but defensive catchers are a dime a dozen, it is that bat that could make him special. The bat needs to start showing some progress, it is scary that he has shown that he may be better suited for Kanny than Birmingham.

 

Not really, no.

[turnin' two]

Not really, no.

 

Really?

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/08/2017...agent-list.html

 

Quite a few here you could sign on the super cheap.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/12/2018...ree-agents.html

 

Couple more here. They aren't hard to find. It is finding a catcher that can hit and play defense that is the trick.

 

And that was hardly the point of the post.

Edited July 3, 2017 by turnin' two

[Y2Jimmy0]

Yeah, well, he is hitting 100 points below that level. Walks are great and all, but if a guy doesn't show the ability to hit, pitchers are just going to attack him, and the walks will decline then disappear. He needs to hit. By no means am I calling him a bust or anything like that, it is his first full season of pro ball and he has time. But he has to hit. For a guy that was billed as an advanced college bat, it is a bit concerning to see him struggle to hit in his second go round in A-ball. If he were doing what he did last year (.258/.418/.467), most people would be happy with him even though it isn't progress. To this point, this season has been a step backwards (offensively) , and in terms of player development, that is a failure. Yes, he has gotten better defensively, but defensive catchers are a dime a dozen, it is that bat that could make him special. The bat needs to start showing some progress, it is scary that he has shown that he may be better suited for Kanny than Birmingham.

 

 

I disagree a bit here. The most important part of Collins' development is staying at catcher. If he can do that, he could be an All-Star. He also doesn't have to be a monster offensively. If he can't stay at C and we are talking about a 1B/DH, then yes he needs to absolutely rake.

[turnin' two]

I disagree a bit here. The most important part of Collins' development is staying at catcher. If he can do that, he could be an All-Star.

 

Only if he hits. Jose Molina was never an All Star. Great catcher, meh as a hitter. Hundreds more examples of the same thing. Collins needs to stay at C, and hit. If he can't do both, his path towards being a major contributor is pretty narrow. Yes, it looks like he can now stay at C, that is huge. A great success for the development team. But a catcher that can't hit, is no big deal, and to be a difference maker, well, I don't think Collins has the Molina arm.

[Y2Jimmy0]

He's going to hit though. Even if he's a high OBP with power, if he stays at catcher, it's a win. If he's like a .265/.365/.450 guy with a bunch of homers and walks, he's likely an All-Star behind the plate.

[turnin' two]

He's going to hit though. Even if he's a high OBP with power, if he stays at catcher, it's a win. If he's like a .265/.365/.450 guy with a bunch of homers and walks, he's likely an All-Star behind the plate.

 

 

I believe in him too, but last month he hit .170 with K's in 1/3 of his PA. He needs to show something. If it looks like he needs to be in WS next season, that is a red flag.

[southsider2k5]

Really?

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/08/2017...agent-list.html

 

Quite a few here you could sign on the super cheap.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/12/2018...ree-agents.html

 

Couple more here. They aren't hard to find. It is finding a catcher that can hit and play defense that is the trick.

 

And that was hardly the point of the post.

Most of those guys aren't that good defensively either.

 

Honestly way too much is being made of a small sample for a guy that has a lot of other stuff to focus on right now. This isn't a time to panic, red flag or anything else for Collins.

[fathom]

Most of those guys aren't that good defensively either.

 

Honestly way too much is being made of a small sample for a guy that has a lot of other stuff to focus on right now. This isn't a time to panic, red flag or anything else for Collins.

 

And I will counter that hearing scouts say the hitch in his swing is killing his hit tool as a major red flag. I know many will disagree, but I'm still not sold on his defense as I've yet to hear a non-Sox source say anything stating he will stick as catcher. Don't forget that Cubs scouts were claiming Schwarber was making tons of progress behind the plate also.

[turnin' two]

Most of those guys aren't that good defensively either.

 

Honestly way too much is being made of a small sample for a guy that has a lot of other stuff to focus on right now. This isn't a time to panic, red flag or anything else for Collins.

 

I know that, but some of them are, and will be signed on the cheap. It is like that every season. A catcher that is nothing more than a defensive catcher is not a rare bird.

 

I never said it was, but if he can't show the progress to move up a league by season's end, that would be, at least to some degree, a red flag. This isn't a Courtney Hawkins, or even Carson Fulmer situation, where he has been criminally rushed. He is at an appropriate level and scuffling badly. Last month was horrid. Hopefully he can put it behind him and start hitting.

Edited July 3, 2017 by turnin' two

[fathom]

I know that, but some of them are, and will be signed on the cheap. It is like that every season. A catcher that is nothing more than a defensive catcher is not a rare bird.

 

I never said it was, but if he can't show the progress to move up a league by season's end, that would be, at least to some degree, a red flag. This isn't a Courtney Hawkins, or even Carson Fulmer situation, where he has been criminally rushed. He is at an appropriate level and scuffling badly. Last month was horrid. Hopefully he can put it behind him and start hitting.

 

Yeah this isn't a Hawkins situation yet where scouts supposedly saw him in his second year and knew he was a bust.

[thxfrthmmrs]

He's going to hit though. Even if he's a high OBP with power, if he stays at catcher, it's a win. If he's like a .265/.365/.450 guy with a bunch of homers and walks, he's likely an All-Star behind the plate.

 

That's a BIG if. Nothing he has done in the first full year of pro ball suggests he could do that. It's pretty evident now that the hitch in his swing is causing issues in making solid contact.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Yeah, well, he is hitting 100 points below that level. Walks are great and all, but if a guy doesn't show the ability to hit, pitchers are just going to attack him, and the walks will decline then disappear. He needs to hit. By no means am I calling him a bust or anything like that, it is his first full season of pro ball and he has time. But he has to hit. For a guy that was billed as an advanced college bat, it is a bit concerning to see him struggle to hit in his second go round in A-ball. If he were doing what he did last year (.258/.418/.467), most people would be happy with him even though it isn't progress. To this point, this season has been a step backwards (offensively) , and in terms of player development, that is a failure. Yes, he has gotten better defensively, but defensive catchers are a dime a dozen, it is that bat that could make him special. The bat needs to start showing some progress, it is scary that he has shown that he may be better suited for Kanny than Birmingham.

 

As I mentioned before, I think his hit tool was overhyped. He was "only" a .300 hitter his first two years in Miami then exploded to .360 hitter in his draft year. His K% was relatively high in college. The hitch in his swing is a concern. All in all, there are more red flags in his hit tool then some let themselves to believe. Let's not pretend that he could just flip the switch and become an all star level hitting catcher we thought he could. Not saying he's a bust or he can't improve, but there is a lot of work he need to do to even become an average hitting catcher in the majors.

Edited July 4, 2017 by 2005thxfrthmmrs

[ChiSox1917]

I'm wondering if part of Collins issues this year is his patience. He's around a 4.25 pitches per plate appearance, which if he was in the majors would be one of the highest in the league. A patient hitter is great, but if he's letting hittable pitches go by and then striking out, it could be an issue. Wonder if they may want to try to get him to be a bit more aggressive earlier in counts to help him out of his slump.

 

Honestly, I think at this point that the best case scenario for Collins is he becomes comparable to Mike Napoli. Napoli's also another guy that is incredibly patient at the plate, who sees a ton of pitches per plate appearance.

[steveno89]

I'm wondering if part of Collins issues this year is his patience. He's around a 4.25 pitches per plate appearance, which if he was in the majors would be one of the highest in the league. A patient hitter is great, but if he's letting hittable pitches go by and then striking out, it could be an issue. Wonder if they may want to try to get him to be a bit more aggressive earlier in counts to help him out of his slump.

 

Honestly, I think at this point that the best case scenario for Collins is he becomes comparable to Mike Napoli. Napoli's also another guy that is incredibly patient at the plate, who sees a ton of pitches per plate appearance.

 

Mike Napoli was a damn fine player for a long time. I'd be thrilled if Collins were as good as him.

[southsider2k5]

Mike Napoli was a damn fine player for a long time. I'd be thrilled if Collins were as good as him.

 

Same here.