15 minutes ago, Richie said:

Much, MUCH needed.

Too bad we spoiled his effort

We'll we got a horrible stable of pitchers in the pen.. and a bumbling, stumbling manager..

 

But as long as the young players improve, then there is hope.

5 hours ago, Wanne said:

which will make players around him better too...no?  That's how it usually goes.  I mentioned this quite a few pages back about this being one of the best things for Moncada if somebody like Eloy comes up and starts tearing it up.   I think it changes Moncada's mindset from "don't screw up/do things wrong/make adjustments"...to being aggressive to be great (if that makes sense).  Think I was kinda mocked for suggesting that.  But we'll see....

I can't wait for him to get up here...he and Kopech and hopefully Robert soon thereafter.

I think if anything, it would help take the pressure off of him to be the future fixture of the franchise. It can't be easy having those expectations on you at 23 while trying to learn and adjust to MLB pitching. Anderson is doing considerably well compared to last year and his whole approach has changed this year with him going out and having fun and being loose.

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Reviewing fangraphs now, and mercy did some Sox players fall off a cliff defensively. Abreu now dead last at first defensively and 4th worst fielder in baseball. Yolmer went from 6-7 range at 3rd to 32nd.

I think there's an error in the site. There shouldn't be such a major change overnight. 

10 hours ago, fathom said:

Reviewing fangraphs now, and mercy did some Sox players fall off a cliff defensively. Abreu now dead last at first defensively and 4th worst fielder in baseball. Yolmer went from 6-7 range at 3rd to 32nd.

Abreu is a terrible fielder.  How he is not a full time DH is indicative to me of how this organization is run and hopefully this thought process can change during the rebuild.  Defense and fundamentals are non-existent at the MLB level and they things they stress (bunting and stealing) are fairly antiquated.

Moncada just passed Nellie Fox on the all time strikeout list with close to 8000 fewer at bats. Different eras I know but still  amazing.

13 hours ago, fathom said:

Anyone know how fangraphs and their defensive fWAR works in terms of updating?  Yoan went from 5th yesterday at 2nd base to 17th at 2nd base with a negative defensive value.

I don't know the schedule but have noticed the updates seem to come in batches. Can't find any documentation about it, though.

This entire team is slumping defensively and it's so obvious the manager doesn't have the guys ready to play on a daily basis.  Not a great environment to develop young players but hopefully it doesn't matter long term.

This would be considered heresy by most Sox fans, and others could easily outright mock the idea (par for the course on anonymous sports forums)

but  I'll ask it anyway,  not to throw a bomb but just to stimulate friendly (I hope) discussion:

Would anyone consider trading Moncada at this point and under any scenario they might envision?

Here is one idea but not sure it would be realistic or plausible:

What if the Orioles would trade Machado to the White Sox right now for Moncada?

The Sox turn around and attempt to sign Machado long term.

If that fails, the Sox immediately make  Machado available for trade for the 2018  play-off run to teams like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and get trade value back from them. 

That all assumes Moncada is what he has show thus far - .An average fielder who can make the occasional spectacular play but a terrible switch hitter.

 

Edited July 3, 20187 yr by tray

6 minutes ago, tray said:

This would be considered heresy by most Sox fans, and others could easily outright mock the idea (par for the course on anonymous sports forums)

but  I'll ask it anyway,  not to throw a bomb but just to stimulate friendly (I hope) discussion:

Would anyone consider trading Moncada at this point and under any scenario they might envision?

Here is one idea but not sure it would be realistic or plausible:

What if the Orioles would trade Machado to the White Sox right now for Moncada?

The Sox turn around and attempt to sign Machado long term.

If that fails, the Sox immediately make  Machado available for trade for the 2018  play-off run to teams like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and get trade value back from them. 

That all assumes Moncada is what he has show thus far - .An average fielder who can make the occasional spectacular play but a terrible switch hitter.

 

Lol man.......just no.

20 minutes ago, tray said:

This would be considered heresy by most Sox fans, and others could easily outright mock the idea (par for the course on anonymous sports forums)

but  I'll ask it anyway,  not to throw a bomb but just to stimulate friendly (I hope) discussion:

Would anyone consider trading Moncada at this point and under any scenario they might envision?

Here is one idea but not sure it would be realistic or plausible:

What if the Orioles would trade Machado to the White Sox right now for Moncada?

The Sox turn around and attempt to sign Machado long term.

If that fails, the Sox immediately make  Machado available for trade for the 2018  play-off run to teams like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and get trade value back from them. 

That all assumes Moncada is what he has show thus far - .An average fielder who can make the occasional spectacular play but a terrible switch hitter.

 

What would they ask for from the Cubs, Yankees or Red Sox for Machado?

What is Moncada's surplus value at right now? 

Sure I would trade Yoan if you can get a 5-6 win player that has five years or so of control left on a good deal. For example, I would deal him for Judge if that was possible (it's not).  Main reason is you could have Yolmer play there two years and then Madrigal takes over.

1 hour ago, tray said:

This would be considered heresy by most Sox fans, and others could easily outright mock the idea (par for the course on anonymous sports forums)

but  I'll ask it anyway,  not to throw a bomb but just to stimulate friendly (I hope) discussion:

Would anyone consider trading Moncada at this point and under any scenario they might envision?

Here is one idea but not sure it would be realistic or plausible:

What if the Orioles would trade Machado to the White Sox right now for Moncada?

The Sox turn around and attempt to sign Machado long term.

If that fails, the Sox immediately make  Machado available for trade for the 2018  play-off run to teams like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and get trade value back from them. 

That all assumes Moncada is what he has show thus far - .An average fielder who can make the occasional spectacular play but a terrible switch hitter.

 

The Orioles do not expect to get anyone of Moncada's caliber, for a 3 or 5 month Machado rental. That is a huge overpay. If you are ready to trade Yoan, you can get more value than a meaningless second half of a pending free agent. They would not get anywhere near the value back, if they immediately flipped Machado, as you suggest, in your scenario. Moreover, if the Sox are really "tanking," for the next Draft, that would be counter productive.

Edited July 3, 20187 yr by Lillian

1 hour ago, tray said:

This would be considered heresy by most Sox fans, and others could easily outright mock the idea (par for the course on anonymous sports forums)

but  I'll ask it anyway,  not to throw a bomb but just to stimulate friendly (I hope) discussion:

Would anyone consider trading Moncada at this point and under any scenario they might envision?

Here is one idea but not sure it would be realistic or plausible:

What if the Orioles would trade Machado to the White Sox right now for Moncada?

The Sox turn around and attempt to sign Machado long term.

If that fails, the Sox immediately make  Machado available for trade for the 2018  play-off run to teams like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and get trade value back from them. 

That all assumes Moncada is what he has show thus far - .An average fielder who can make the occasional spectacular play but a terrible switch hitter.

 

Not to blast you, but we've reached the stage of insane silliness. Now we want to trade the guys we got in the tank years for the rebuild. Let's just do a never ending cycle of trading/tanking. Thing is you'll never hit lightning in a bottle doing it this way like 2005. Do it the old way you can win titles any year conceivably. Do it this way, you tank for 5 years, then have a window of 3 and tank again. I'm sure I'll give up on baseball before too much longer which will make everybody on this board happy.
 

We could trade Moncada and Soria and Shields and Timmy in a blockbuster for let's say a contender's top six prospects. Maybe some national writer can start a rumor that Moncada is available. Insane stuff.

Edited July 3, 20187 yr by greg775

17 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Probably because defensive metrics are absolutely useless. 

I could not possibly agree more.

6 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Not to blast you, but we've reached the stage of insane silliness. Now we want to trade the guys we got in the tank years for the rebuild. Let's just do a never ending cycle of trading/tanking. Thing is you'll never hit lightning in a bottle doing it this way like 2005. Do it the old way you can win titles any year conceivably. Do it this way, you tank for 5 years, then have a window of 3 and tank again. I'm sure I'll give up on baseball before too much longer which will make everybody on this board happy.
 

We could trade Moncada and Soria and Shields and Timmy in a blockbuster for let's say a contender's top six prospects. Maybe some national writer can start a rumor that Moncada is available. Insane stuff.

There's a reason why the phrase is called "catching lightning in a bottle."

Edited July 3, 20187 yr by soxfan2014

1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said:

There's a reason why the phrase is called "catching lightning in a bottle."

I'd give anything to have some of those teams that were expected to win, but failed right now. Thing is ... we need a new owner, GM and head GM (Kenny role) in that scenario. Fathom and Soxfan2014 could have tinkered and made some of those teams WS contenders. A lot of the flop teams were picked to win the division.

14 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I'd give anything to have some of those teams that were expected to win, but failed right now. Thing is ... we need a new owner, GM and head GM (Kenny role) in that scenario. Fathom and Soxfan2014 could have tinkered and made some of those teams WS contenders. A lot of the flop teams were picked to win the division.

 Yeah... from 2006 through 2015 --- there's no excuse for us having only won the central one lone time (also our lone playoff appearance). I mean, there was some fun and the glimpses of promise provided excitement. I'll never forget in 2012 when we beat Detroit to distance ourselves in that rain make-up game in September -- I thought we had the Central locked up and that our pitching staff was good enough for us to make a run. Then, we went completely in the sh*tter. Just like we did in a lot of those post-05 seasons.

5 minutes ago, Richie said:

 Yeah... from 2006 through 2015 --- there's no excuse for us having only won the central one lone time (also our lone playoff appearance). I mean, there was some fun and the glimpses of promise provided excitement. I'll never forget in 2012 when we beat Detroit to distance ourselves in that rain make-up game in September -- I thought we had the Central locked up and that our pitching staff was good enough for us to make a run. Then, we went completely in the sh*tter. Just like we did in a lot of those post-05 seasons.

Love your posts Richie. Keep it up, sir.

10 minutes ago, Richie said:

 Yeah... from 2006 through 2015 --- there's no excuse for us having only won the central one lone time (also our lone playoff appearance). I mean, there was some fun and the glimpses of promise provided excitement. I'll never forget in 2012 when we beat Detroit to distance ourselves in that rain make-up game in September -- I thought we had the Central locked up and that our pitching staff was good enough for us to make a run. Then, we went completely in the sh*tter. Just like we did in a lot of those post-05 seasons.

As I heard someone on radio put it, a Sox fan could have moved to the North Pole immediately after Brian Anderson's diving catch and they wouldn't have missed anything on consequence if they returned today.

20 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Love your posts Richie. Keep it up, sir.

Well thank you, sir

And likewise

Edited July 3, 20187 yr by Richie

14 minutes ago, fathom said:

As I heard someone on radio put it, a Sox fan could have moved to the North Pole immediately after Brian Anderson's diving catch and they wouldn't have missed anything on consequence if they returned today.

Nobody ever could have imagined the Sox would struggle so badly after winning it all. Too bad in retrospect JR didn't sell and KW take the job in Hollywood right after winning it all.

Explanation I got from Fangraphs for Moncada sliding from 5 to 17 for defense:

 

Quote

We update our fielding metric, UZR, once a week.  So there is the potential for there to be non trivial changes in fielding metrics at that time.  Though, I think the issue in this case is the UZR update was delayed longer, and he's had 4 or 5 errors since the update, which will definitely put a big dent in his fielding numbers.

 

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

Nobody ever could have imagined the Sox would struggle so badly after winning it all. Too bad in retrospect JR didn't sell and KW take the job in Hollywood right after winning it all.

If you really want to reflect on what a bizzaro world it was in the aftermath of 05 compared to now. I very clearly remember an ongoing topic on The Score and other local sports media through the first half of 2006. We got off to a very nice start following our title -- as the Cubs were well on their way to a last place finish. The local pundits would regularly be discussing "Here's why the White Sox are so much better as an organization" and "What can the Cubs do to be more like the White Sox?"... "How can the Cubs get their heads out of their asses and be more like that team on the southside!?"

That is a memory which pops into my head every once in a while and I laugh.

How a decade can change things... man, oh man. 

The best evidence that advanced fielding metrics are not useless is the fact that by and large they identify as great fielders the same people who close observers of the game do.