1 hour ago, LittleHurt05 said:

At what point can you change from the pains of a rebuild to a sub-par front office and scouting staff?  While people do need to be patient, results should be expected at some point and the people in charge haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

Sox fans are going to have to be extremely patient with this rebuild. This team is nowhere ready to compete and the development of top prospects is being pushed back due to injuries. Unless this team signs some impact free agents we are most likely looking at 90-100 loss seasons this year, next year, and 2020.

Might be time to pull a Rip Van Winkle and wake up in 2021... 

 

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I spent all off season saying exactly this.

+1

I remember you saying this quite often.

1 hour ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said:

Sox fans are going to have to be extremely patient with this rebuild. This team is nowhere ready to compete and the development of top prospects is being pushed back due to injuries. Unless this team signs some impact free agents we are most likely looking at 90-100 loss seasons this year, next year, and 2020.

Might be time to pull a Rip Van Winkle and wake up in 2021... 

 

They don't have to win the world series next year, but if this team isn't substantially better next season than this year then you start thinking that the org is still doing something significantly wrong.

Guys like Giolito and Moncada struggling some...that was to be expected. We're seeing some growth out of the bullpen already, we're seeing Lopez gradually figure out how to deal with teams, these guys should be getting better next year, and more are still on the way (so far without being hugely rushed too, which is nice).

Yes Abreu is going the wrong way and that hurts some, but if this team is in the discussion of worst team in the league again next year, then it's worth asking what Rick did wrong to wind up with so many guys who aren't taking steps forward.

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes Abreu is going the wrong way

So you refuse to acknowledge this could be just be a one month slump and are continuing with your downward trajectory theory.  Look who is dodging the data now.

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The question I have with Moncada is what’s changed since his injury?  Look at the splits below (pre / post injury).  Despite striking out a ton, the kid was absolutely murdering the ball.  His line drive & hard contact rates were amongst the highest in the leagues and that shows in his power numbers.  Since the injuries, his entire offensive game has regressed (with the exception of strikeouts) to the point of being a terrible hitter.  These can not be the same player and the insane tools suggest that the pre-injury player (with some BABIP regression) is there in there.  Is Moncada not healthy?  Is he having swing / approach issues?  Has the league adjusted how they’re attacking him?  There has to be explanation for how he want from one of the best to one of the worst hitters in such a short period of time.

PA: 132 / 198

BB %: 12.9% / 5.6%

K %: 37.1% / 34.3%

ISO: .246 / .130

LD %: 29.2 / 17.8%

Hard %: 51.5% / 35.6%

BABIP: .407 / .281

OPS: .868 / .566

wRC+: 139 / 53

Health might be an issue that could explain it. He did have a thumb injury earlier in the year, maybe that's the culprit? Hand and wrist injuries seem to severely dampen many players' offensive games.

28 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They don't have to win the world series next year, but if this team isn't substantially better next season than this year then you start thinking that the org is still doing something significantly wrong.

Guys like Giolito and Moncada struggling some...that was to be expected. We're seeing some growth out of the bullpen already, we're seeing Lopez gradually figure out how to deal with teams, these guys should be getting better next year, and more are still on the way (so far without being hugely rushed too, which is nice).

Yes Abreu is going the wrong way and that hurts some, but if this team is in the discussion of worst team in the league again next year, then it's worth asking what Rick did wrong to wind up with so many guys who aren't taking steps forward.

What is substantially better and how do you see it happening ? Is a big part of your thinking a big free agent signing ?

25 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Health might be an issue that could explain it. He did have a thumb injury earlier in the year, maybe that's the culprit? Hand and wrist injuries seem to severely dampen many players' offensive games.

When the White Sox played the Red Sox last month, I posted that Alex Spier of the Boston Globe was interviewed in the announcer's both during one inning. He said Moncada has had several hand  injuries in his career and that there is talk it is limiting his batting especially from the right side.  I wasn't aware of other hand injuries and said at the time it may have been sour grapes. 

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

What is substantially better and how do you see it happening ? Is a big part of your thinking a big free agent signing ?

Quite frankly I don't think the team has to show any improvement next season to be considered a success by most fans. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just saying this rebuild stuff has a lot of support. Fans simply LOVE the unknown and if the Sox don't rush prospects there will be no expectations and no urgency to win. If we suck and the studs aren't up yet, fans will be happy/patient as ever. The thing that bothers me is this year we could have flirted with .500 had we spent some cash on one or two stopgap free agent starting pitchers, 1-2 stopgap relievers and maybe one FA hitter not blocking anybody. Certainly a better catcher. It doesn't have to be this painful. I know 90 percent of you disagree with me and I understand your reasoning so no reason to argue. I just don't think next year's flop will be lambasted by fans at all. They are cool with dreaming of the unknown players and only Eloy and Kopech figure to be added next year. There will be plenty in the minors getting more seasoning and the allure of them, the mystery, the unknown, will make our fans not named Greg very happy.

50 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Quite frankly I don't think the team has to show any improvement next season to be considered a success by most fans. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just saying this rebuild stuff has a lot of support. Fans simply LOVE the unknown and if the Sox don't rush prospects there will be no expectations and no urgency to win. If we suck and the studs aren't up yet, fans will be happy/patient as ever. The thing that bothers me is this year we could have flirted with .500 had we spent some cash on one or two stopgap free agent starting pitchers, 1-2 stopgap relievers and maybe one FA hitter not blocking anybody. Certainly a better catcher. It doesn't have to be this painful. I know 90 percent of you disagree with me and I understand your reasoning so no reason to argue. I just don't think next year's flop will be lambasted by fans at all. They are cool with dreaming of the unknown players and only Eloy and Kopech figure to be added next year. There will be plenty in the minors getting more seasoning and the allure of them, the mystery, the unknown, will make our fans not named Greg very happy.

Who's to say they didn't try? Those kind of pieces would be at least flipable at the deadline if the team sucked. They did sign Welington. so you can cross off the part of a FA hitter not blocking anybody off this list because they did add a legit MLB stick behind the plate (PEDs aside). 

Edited July 2, 20187 yr by soxfan2014

I would say that the main difference between Yoan and pre- and post-injury is between his ears. That's not inconsistent with some of the other explanations given here (e.g., a bad approach can make a player pull off the ball). Yoan is dealing with failure right now and probably has some maturing to do. I suspect he's not reacting well to the missed ball/strike calls in particular.

56 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Quite frankly I don't think the team has to show any improvement next season to be considered a success by most fans. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just saying this rebuild stuff has a lot of support. Fans simply LOVE the unknown and if the Sox don't rush prospects there will be no expectations and no urgency to win. If we suck and the studs aren't up yet, fans will be happy/patient as ever. The thing that bothers me is this year we could have flirted with .500 had we spent some cash on one or two stopgap free agent starting pitchers, 1-2 stopgap relievers and maybe one FA hitter not blocking anybody. Certainly a better catcher. It doesn't have to be this painful. I know 90 percent of you disagree with me and I understand your reasoning so no reason to argue. I just don't think next year's flop will be lambasted by fans at all. They are cool with dreaming of the unknown players and only Eloy and Kopech figure to be added next year. There will be plenty in the minors getting more seasoning and the allure of them, the mystery, the unknown, will make our fans not named Greg very happy.

Dude.

Do you REALLY think this little was worth 25 games?  We didn't do it with Chris Sale, Adam Eaton, Jose Quintana and company.  Also the Bullpen has been a top 10 bullpen in MLB.  They aren't the problem.

3 minutes ago, Jake said:

I would say that the main difference between Yoan and pre- and post-injury is between his ears. That's not inconsistent with some of the other explanations given here (e.g., a bad approach can make a player pull off the ball). Yoan is dealing with failure right now and probably has some maturing to do. I suspect he's not reacting well to the missed ball/strike calls in particular.

It is absolutely between the ears at this point.  You can tell he is taking those struggles into the field and on to the basepaths with him.  He isn't relaxed, he isn't having fun, and it shows.

6 hours ago, Flash Tizzle said:

If Moncada doesn't reach that reasonable benchmark, it's time to openly criticize the organization. Either they overestimated Moncada (their fault) or don't have the coaches capable of working with him (again their fault). 

A rebuild is obviously an opportunity for development, but he isn't learning in a vacuum -- his value is tied to an unprecedented trade deal involving a perrenial Cy Young contender/possible HOF pitcher. We didn't trade Sale to accept a 2 year learning curve for a highly regarded prospect. I feel like we constantly lose sight of the value we traded. There's no room for excuses or errors. They need to fix it, or else, may as well complete the rebuild and fix the front office. 

That's just Moncada, mind you. We haven't even been treated with Kopech and Jimenez yet; but I'll set the stage now. "You can't expect every prospect to immediately succeed and sustain success!" Well, how about 1? 

Yeah, I think Eloy will be that guy who comes up and succeeds rather quickly. Which is easy to say... but I did not feel that way about Moncada, nor do I think Kopech will do that. I expect Kopech's first season to be a bit of roller coaster ride. 

Eloy just seems to obliterate the ball wherever he goes and I think at least a version of that will translate. 

Edited July 2, 20187 yr by Richie

46 minutes ago, Jake said:

I would say that the main difference between Yoan and pre- and post-injury is between his ears. That's not inconsistent with some of the other explanations given here (e.g., a bad approach can make a player pull off the ball). Yoan is dealing with failure right now and probably has some maturing to do. I suspect he's not reacting well to the missed ball/strike calls in particular.

No doubt he’s pressing and the missed calls haven’t helped.  Honestly, I think it’s probably a combination of all the factors I mentioned that are causing his problems.  It’s never easy for someone like him who has been mostly successful their whole career to overcome failure at the major league level.  Ultimately you have to believe in the underlying talent to right the ship.

33 minutes ago, Richie said:

Yeah, I think Eloy will be that guy who comes up and succeeds rather quickly. Which is easy to say... but I did not feel that way about Moncada, nor do I think Kopech will do that. I expect Kopech's first season to be a bit of roller coaster ride. 

Eloy just seems to obliterate the ball wherever he goes and I think at least a version of that will translate. 

If there is a guy in our system who will hit from Day 1, it is Eloy.  It has always been Eloy.

30 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If there is a guy in our system who will hit from Day 1, it is Eloy.  It has always been Eloy.

which will make players around him better too...no?  That's how it usually goes.  I mentioned this quite a few pages back about this being one of the best things for Moncada if somebody like Eloy comes up and starts tearing it up.   I think it changes Moncada's mindset from "don't screw up/do things wrong/make adjustments"...to being aggressive to be great (if that makes sense).  Think I was kinda mocked for suggesting that.  But we'll see....

I can't wait for him to get up here...he and Kopech and hopefully Robert soon thereafter.

1 minute ago, Wanne said:

which will make players around him better too...no?  That's how it usually goes.  I mentioned this quite a few pages back about this being one of the best things for Moncada if somebody like Eloy comes up and starts tearing it up.   I think it changes Moncada's mindset from "don't screw up/do things wrong/make adjustments"...to being aggressive to be great (if that makes sense).  Think I was kinda mocked for suggesting that.  But we'll see....

I can't wait for him to get up here...he and Kopech and hopefully Robert soon thereafter.

I think offense is absolutely contagious.  When guys go bad they press.  When the offense goes bad, guys start to press harder.  As more guys hit, you don't have to stress about your ABs as much.

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think offense is absolutely contagious.  When guys go bad they press.  When the offense goes bad, guys start to press harder.  As more guys hit, you don't have to stress about your ABs as much.

How come Avi and Abreu don't get the benefit of the doubt/excuses when they are struggling/pressing? Don't freak out. Just asking. I think Moncada is an excellent prospect and a perennial all-star, just asking.

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

How come Avi and Abreu don't get the benefit of the doubt/excuses when they are struggling/pressing? Don't freak out. Just asking. I think Moncada is an excellent prospect and a perennial all-star, just asking.

Lots of people have given Abreu the benefit of the doubt Greg. Neither Avi nor Abreu have the tools Moncada has and Moncada is in his first full season. Apples and oranges.

Anyone know how fangraphs and their defensive fWAR works in terms of updating?  Yoan went from 5th yesterday at 2nd base to 17th at 2nd base with a negative defensive value.

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I think offense is absolutely contagious.  When guys go bad they press.  When the offense goes bad, guys start to press harder.  As more guys hit, you don't have to stress about your ABs as much.

Baseball is one of the few games where "trying harder" will turn into bad results. You want guys out there relaxed and having fun. Pitching is contagious as well. 

Good game out of Moncada tonight.

1 minute ago, fathom said:

Anyone know how fangraphs and their defensive fWAR works in terms of updating?  Yoan went from 5th yesterday at 2nd base to 17th at 2nd base with a negative defensive value.

Probably because defensive metrics are absolutely useless. 

2 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

Good game out of Moncada tonight.

Much, MUCH needed.

Too bad we spoiled his effort

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Probably because defensive metrics are absolutely useless. 

Reviewing fangraphs now, and mercy did some Sox players fall off a cliff defensively. Abreu now dead last at first defensively and 4th worst fielder in baseball. Yolmer went from 6-7 range at 3rd to 32nd.