2020 Election Thoughts

[pcq]

The military oath includes a provision to obey orders of the president. 

[Texsox]

Isn't it lawful order of the president? 

[The Beast]

11 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Many Dem leaders believe the President can make it happen by executive order. The numbers mentioned are up to $50,000 with $10,000 getting mentioned the most. 

Several candidates in the primaries talked about it. It's interesting in that it probably would benefit middle to upper middle class families the most. Most debt is held by students that went to graduate school and usually the most capable of repaying the loans. 

Still,  it seems like a good idea to me if it is combined with increased financial aid for students attending community colleges. I'd like to see public education move from 13 years to 15 years free via the community college system. 

I remember the primary debates and I thought I would fit more in the Klobuchar camp with the reduced or free community college. I couldn’t get on board with Sanders or Warren with their proposals for college and Biden’s plan for college once he was the candidate seemed aspirational. I did read about the executive order that you mentioned and would think that some loan forgiveness tied to years of public or community service makes some sense, as does some reduction in student loan rates. I don’t know how something would get done through legislation and seem to think it would have to get done through an executive order.

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, pcq said:

The military oath includes a provision to obey orders of the president. 

It does say obey the orders of the president but also support and defend the constitution which  does not support martial law . Flynn admitted Trump would have to put the constitution on pause to do this. A true patriot.

Just the fact that Trump even considered this should be enough to involk the 25th.

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, The Beast said:

I remember the primary debates and I thought I would fit more in the Klobuchar camp with the reduced or free community college. I couldn’t get on board with Sanders or Warren with their proposals for college and Biden’s plan for college once he was the candidate seemed aspirational. I did read about the executive order that you mentioned and would think that some loan forgiveness tied to years of public or community service makes some sense, as does some reduction in student loan rates. I don’t know how something would get done through legislation and seem to think it would have to get done through an executive order.

There already are programs tied to community service.  A popular one with teachers is $5,000 in forgiveness for teaching in lower income areas for five years. 

 

[NWINFan]

1 hour ago, pcq said:

The military oath includes a provision to obey orders of the president. 

During the last days of the Nixon presidency, many in the military will planning not to obey some deranged orders from a president acting under extreme pressure. So if, for some odd reason, Nixon ordered a nuclear attack against any nation, that didn't mean that order would be carried out. In fact, many times Nixon would go off on some rant and his aides ignored him. 

[NWINFan]

16 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

I’m genuinely curious how you’ve established your line here.

Can I rant about our need for a military coup on Twitter? Or am I safe? Why? You don’t care that some protesters want the downfall of the USA. Fine, but why? Because we’re all nobodies? Is that the difference maker?

I'm a big Trump critic but am careful never to make threatening remarks about him. First, the people who moderate this site wouldn't allow it. Secondly, I don't want the Secret Service knocking at my door. Thirdly, I believe in the democratic process not violence. A person can name-call or otherwise make caustic remarks, but physical threats are looked upon as dangerous. And Flynn is dangerous. So is the political climate of this country. All of this is a waste energy. There is no way this election was stolen. Trump was not any kind of victim. Time to return to reality if any of his supporters were ever there.

[tray]

 

Flynn and Powell are nutjobs filled with fanciful conspiracy theories.

Nevertheless, Trump invited them to the WH to consider their wacko seditious plan to rerun elections in the Swing States.  You know, station our military around inner city polling stations stifle people from voting. 

So how is it that  an attempted act of sedition amounting to a  military coup is being discussed in the Whitehouse  with virtually no backlash at Fox News?

When is enough enough for the Fox News addicted lemmings?  When should Republicans admit they made a mistake voting for a nut job?

Maybe Trump will try something crazy, like announcing that a foreign government detected vote fraud in the swing States, and therefore those elections have to be re-run with the aid of the military to prevent foreign interference.

 

 

 

 

[tray]

6 hours ago, The Beast said:

I remember the primary debates and I thought I would fit more in the Klobuchar camp with the reduced or free community college. I couldn’t get on board with Sanders or Warren with their proposals for college and Biden’s plan for college once he was the candidate seemed aspirational. I did read about the executive order that you mentioned and would think that some loan forgiveness tied to years of public or community service makes some sense, as does some reduction in student loan rates. I don’t know how something would get done through legislation and seem to think it would have to get done through an executive order.

Student loans are stifling the careers of young people which negatively impacts the economy. That is the crux of Senator Warren's argument concerning the impact of student loans.

Maybe lower the interest rates on student loans to zero to allow young people to pay them off and put a cap on interest rates for credit cards....an interest rate  that is not usurious, like 10% max. Lower the cap on borrowing if the credit card companies are worried about risk..

IMHO, wayy too much wealth is concentrated on the upper 5-10%  in this country. I am not advocating Socialism but instead, some fundamental fairness. There are those who have no stocks , no health insurance, yet work like dogs to make ends meet. They are not our enemies, they are people we need to embrace rather than demonize and trample upon.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by tray

[Texsox]

10 minutes ago, tray said:

There are those who have no stocks , no health insurance, yet work like dogs to make ends meet. They are not our enemies, they are people we need to embrace rather than demonize and trample upon.

 

I couldn't agree more. 

[southsider2k5]

20 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

@Soxbadger @southsider2k5 @Balta1701 I am still a free speech absolutist- I see Balta’s comment about pulling a BLM banner off a church and burning it and that’s more of a property crime to me than anything else (people can freely burn their own BLM and American flags etc). IMO, the concept of hate crimes punishes ideas rather than actions (or exacerbates punishment based on the idea driving the action) and is anathema to a society that respects free expression.

HOWEVER, I have been out of the loop and did not know Flynn was involved in briefings at the White House. I don’t know why he would be, but POTUS being who he is, I am not surprised. I saw him tweeting some lunacies the other day and figured his current ramblings were more of the same and that he was no more than a released prisoner. I took my defense of him far longer than I should have and have no interest in continuing it further.

I am glad to heare the last part.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, tray said:

 

Flynn and Powell are nutjobs filled with fanciful conspiracy theories.

Nevertheless, Trump invited them to the WH to consider their wacko seditious plan to rerun elections in the Swing States.  You know, station our military around inner city polling stations stifle people from voting. 

So how is it that  an attempted act of sedition amounting to a  military coup is being discussed in the Whitehouse  with virtually no backlash at Fox News?

When is enough enough for the Fox News addicted lemmings?  When should Republicans admit they made a mistake voting for a nut job?

Maybe Trump will try something crazy, like announcing that a foreign government detected vote fraud in the swing States, and therefore those elections have to be re-run with the aid of the military to prevent foreign interference.

 

 

 

 

FoxNews had to run retractions on Lou Dobbs show Jeanne Pirros show and Maria Bartaroma's show about someone their false claims for fear of another lawsuit.

[Danny Dravot]

7 hours ago, pcq said:

The military oath includes a provision to obey orders of the president. 

I know you’ve blocked me so you won’t see this, but that’s the enlisted oath. “To the president and the officers appointed over me”. Officers only swear to uphold the Constitution.

[ron883]

8 hours ago, Texsox said:

Many Dem leaders believe the President can make it happen by executive order. The numbers mentioned are up to $50,000 with $10,000 getting mentioned the most. 

Several candidates in the primaries talked about it. It's interesting in that it probably would benefit middle to upper middle class families the most. Most debt is held by students that went to graduate school and usually the most capable of repaying the loans. 

Still,  it seems like a good idea to me if it is combined with increased financial aid for students attending community colleges. I'd like to see public education move from 13 years to 15 years free via the community college system. 

This is exactly what it is. It is an asinine proposal. You're just giving more money to those who are generally more well off. Why stop there? Might as well pay off people's car loans and mortgage while we are at it. Free stuff for everybody. 

[Danny Dravot]

1 hour ago, tray said:

Student loans are stifling the careers of young people which negatively impacts the economy. That is the crux of Senator Warren's argument concerning the impact of student loans.

Maybe lower the interest rates on student loans to zero to allow young people to pay them off and put a cap on interest rates for credit cards....an interest rate  that is not usurious, like 10% max. Lower the cap on borrowing if the credit card companies are worried about risk..

IMHO, wayy too much wealth is concentrated on the upper 5-10%  in this country. I am not advocating Socialism but instead, some fundamental fairness. There are those who have no stocks , no health insurance, yet work like dogs to make ends meet. They are not our enemies, they are people we need to embrace rather than demonize and trample upon.

 

Who took out those student loans? And credit cards? Are you responsible for the fact that 24 y/o me decided he needed a touchscreen desktop all-in-one computer that he couldn’t afford and lived with the resulting debt and interest for five years or so?

I don’t believe you’re advocating for socialism and that is not my accusation at all. I’ve said many times that I’m in favor of a limited welfare state that prevents actual suffering. So public option for healthcare with some sort of phased out subsidies for lower income levels, unemployment insurance and food stamp programs that are available but push recipients towards independence, federal support for homeless shelters, etc. I’d advocate for all of that.

However, forgiving student loan debt is wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. My aunt and uncle didn’t go to college and live a Hillbilly Elegy life in podunk, but her sibling, my mother, has a graduate degree and the money that eventually comes with it. Should the former have helped the latter with a debt they didn’t incur so she could have benefits they never would? No way. My mom took out the loans and reaped the benefits- that wasn’t anyone else’s responsibility.

College grads can’t fully participate in the economy? Bummer. Neither did I for several years while I paid off silly credit card debt and the most onerous student loans. Society would have had a responsibility to make sure that even in my foolishness I didn’t starve to death, sure, but whether I could vacation in Europe and eat at fancy restaurants wasn’t its concern. Are our college grads housed, fed, and medically covered? Yes? Then we’re good.

[CentralChamps21]

Student loan forgiveness favors people who recently went to college. If you're 10+ years out of college you had to pay yours off 100% but someone gets out of paying theirs because they happen to be a few years younger?

Let's use that money to make K-12 schools better in the areas of greatest need.

[Jerksticks]

Stop federally insuring/writing loans and the price of college would come way down

Edited December 20, 2020 by Jerksticks

[Danny Dravot]

2 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Student loan forgiveness favors people who recently went to college. If you're 10+ years out of college you had to pay yours off 100% but someone gets out of paying theirs because they happen to be a few years younger?

Let's use that money to make K-12 schools better in the areas of greatest need.

I know some people will argue, “you’re saying that your life sucked so other people’s lives should suck too”? If that’s how they want to read it, they’re free to do so.

I objectively have less money because I did the right thing and paid my loans off. If I had known this was coming, I should have been a schmuck and not paid anything. In fact, I still owe on one loan and make payments monthly- should I just stop doing that because I get the sense that’s the way the wind is shifting?

Don’t worry though. I think that is a super fucked up course of action.

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

This is exactly what it is. It is an asinine proposal. You're just giving more money to those who are generally more well off. Why stop there? Might as well pay off people's car loans and mortgage while we are at it. Free stuff for everybody. 

Isn't that what they did with the $1,200 earlier in the year or any of the tax cuts?

[Danny Dravot]

31 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Isn't that what they did with the $1,200 earlier in the year or any of the tax cuts?

Except the $1,200 capped out at certain levels so it was dedicated primarily to those of lesser means, and while you might disagree with tax cuts, it’s returning to people their own money.

Student loan forgiveness looks at debt that people took, ignores that they got what they paid for, and then frees them from it.

Now, for people who got ripped off by stupid things like Phoenix or ITT or Trump U, they should be reimbursed and the courts can handle that.

[The Beast]

12 hours ago, Texsox said:

There already are programs tied to community service.  A popular one with teachers is $5,000 in forgiveness for teaching in lower income areas for five years. 

 

Good. Now create more of them for different occupations.

6 hours ago, tray said:

Student loans are stifling the careers of young people which negatively impacts the economy. That is the crux of Senator Warren's argument concerning the impact of student loans.

Maybe lower the interest rates on student loans to zero to allow young people to pay them off and put a cap on interest rates for credit cards....an interest rate  that is not usurious, like 10% max. Lower the cap on borrowing if the credit card companies are worried about risk..

IMHO, wayy too much wealth is concentrated on the upper 5-10%  in this country. I am not advocating Socialism but instead, some fundamental fairness. There are those who have no stocks , no health insurance, yet work like dogs to make ends meet. They are not our enemies, they are people we need to embrace rather than demonize and trample upon.

 

Well, why not start with fixing loopholes so Amazon pays more in taxes? I don’t think Biden would go for a wealth tax aside from higher tax rates. I’m thinking Warren may be alone on that idea.

[StrangeSox]

 

 

[Texsox]

9 hours ago, Danny Dravot said:

Except the $1,200 capped out at certain levels so it was dedicated primarily to those of lesser means, and while you might disagree with tax cuts, it’s returning to people their own money.

Student loan forgiveness looks at debt that people took, ignores that they got what they paid for, and then frees them from it.

Now, for people who got ripped off by stupid things like Phoenix or ITT or Trump U, they should be reimbursed and the courts can handle that.

Ok instead of forgiving student loans cut their taxes the amount of their loans.  It's their money then that is paying off the loan. 

[CentralChamps21]

There is a very close connection between academia and the liberal/progressive political establishment. Forgiving student loans reduces the pressure on colleges to cut costs, which would include cutting salaries. This is the left looking out for their friends disguised as a progressive plan to help young people struggling with debt.

Meanwhile, in the most poverty-stricken areas, kids have so little in the way of K-12 education and support that they're very unlikely to ever even have college as an option.

I could get behind a plan to have up to 5 years of interest-free deferment to allow graduates some time to build up their salary before having to start making payments, but that's about it.

[StrangeSox]

Academia has been gutting professorships for a long time now. More and more teaching is done by TA's and poorly paid adjuncts. Tenure-track positions are withering away. All of that extra tuition money isn't going into their pockets. It's going to admin and increasingly lavish campuses.