25 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

This is cherry picking, but didn't Madrigal crush one off the scoreboard at the alternate site last summer? I remember reading reports that it was a no-doubter.

But that might be the difference in his chosen style of play - he might be able to uncork some Mighty Mouse power in practice games, but he keeps his compact high-contact swing for the actual games.

If that's the case, he might be able to loosen up and sacrifice a couple hits in the future for a little power that to keep the outfield honest.

I don't think it's cherry picking at all. I used the spray charts for his whole MLB career. Am I supposed to take spring training, alternate sites, his minor league career and college career into consideration ? Besides that, what I said isn't that much different from the guy I responded to in the 1st place @hi8is . He thought he could hit 5-10 HR's annually in his career  and I think it's lower than that. He had no problem with what I said. He can be a good player no matter how many HR's he hits.

I think if he would have to sacrifice anything to hit a few more HR's it would be his approach which would be sacrificing consistent contact and adding a few more K's in order to pull the ball more. He won't change his approach. His approach is what has put him right where is now which is a good thing.

I'm holding off my judging of Nick's slugging until the end of next year. I have no idea if he can improve it or not, but I'm willing to be patient. His defense and base running are improving, but I want to see top notch play in those areas. He can be a special player even if he doesn't hit homers. 

I've seen enough clips of Madrigal driving the ball with authority to left in college and the minors that I'd be surprised if he doesn't end the year with 3-4 hrs.  But the actual impact these few homers will have on his slugging and value as a player is minimal so who cares.  It does seem like there are a lot of people who would be far more satisfied with Madrigal if he hit 5 hrs/year compared to 0, all else being the same, which to me is strange.

39 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think it's cherry picking at all. I used the spray charts for his whole MLB career. Am I supposed to take spring training, alternate sites, his minor league career and college career into consideration ? Besides that, what I said isn't that much different from the guy I responded to in the 1st place @hi8is . He thought he could hit 5-10 HR's annually in his career  and I think it's lower than that. He had no problem with what I said. He can be a good player no matter how many HR's he hits.

I think if he would have to sacrifice anything to hit a few more HR's it would be his approach which would be sacrificing consistent contact and adding a few more K's in order to pull the ball more. He won't change his approach. His approach is what has put him right where is now which is a good thing.

Oh, no, I meant I thought *I* was cherry picking by referencing one anecdote from the alternate site HR as my belief that's he's got power in him if he chooses to. I agree with you, I think he COULD be a 5-10 HR guy if he wanted to, but that's not what makes him a successful hitter.

29 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

I've seen enough clips of Madrigal driving the ball with authority to left in college and the minors that I'd be surprised if he doesn't end the year with 3-4 hrs.  But the actual impact these few homers will have on his slugging and value as a player is minimal so who cares.  It does seem like there are a lot of people who would be far more satisfied with Madrigal if he hit 5 hrs/year compared to 0, all else being the same, which to me is strange.

Agreed!  Power hitters give up some average to swing for the fences...high BA and OBP guys give up some power for better bat control.  I don't care about Nicky hitting homers...it just isn't his game.  

34 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

I've seen enough clips of Madrigal driving the ball with authority to left in college and the minors that I'd be surprised if he doesn't end the year with 3-4 hrs.  But the actual impact these few homers will have on his slugging and value as a player is minimal so who cares.  It does seem like there are a lot of people who would be far more satisfied with Madrigal if he hit 5 hrs/year compared to 0, all else being the same, which to me is strange.

As long as he can rip some doubles & triples I honestly don’t care much about HRs with him.  Especially when the rest of the long-term lineup (assuming Cespedes or Colas eventually own RF) is filled with power hitters.

anybody else notice how the royals were pitching madrigal?  everything was up or up+inside.  his strikeout was up+inside  

do you think the league might have figured out a way to pitch him, or do you think his numbers are always gonna be roughly the same as right now?

Just now, joesaiditstrue said:

anybody else notice how the royals were pitching madrigal?  everything was up or up+inside.  his strikeout was up+inside  

do you think the league might have figured out a way to pitch him, or do you think his numbers are always gonna be roughly the same as right now?

I think he's pretty much locked in to 300/340/370 type lines for now.  That's not bad and it's pretty useful as long as he's a solid defensive 2B long term.  He has a 27% pull rate.  That...is just not going to generate much power.  Unless he sells out for more power this profile is pretty much who he is.  I think he should start looking to pull the ball more starting next offseason.  It's too late right now to try and change his approach in season imo.

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think he's pretty much locked in to 300/340/370 type lines for now.  That's not bad and it's pretty useful as long as he's a solid defensive 2B long term.  He has a 27% pull rate.  That...is just not going to generate much power.  Unless he sells out for more power this profile is pretty much who he is.  I think he should start looking to pull the ball more starting next offseason.  It's too late right now to try and change his approach in season imo.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/nick-madrigal-is-good-can-he-be-great/

Good article on Madrigal. He's a good player currently. His 20 grade power and lack of walks holds him back. 

5 minutes ago, ron883 said:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/nick-madrigal-is-good-can-he-be-great/

Good article on Madrigal. He's a good player currently. His 20 grade power and lack of walks holds him back. 

I read that before it was linked here that morning it came out, FWIW, didn't really feel the need to comment on it because I thought it was self evident to anyone with a modicum of sabermetric experience and Madrigal's stats pulled up, like frankly most of Fangraphs' work these days.  I don't think there is a single modern player that had an ISO under .100 that had more than 4 bWAR season.  I dutifully wait some nerd with a BR sub to run the query and prove me wrong (or right I guess)! paging @gusguyman

Edited May 10, 20214 yr by chitownsportsfan

36 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I read that before it was linked here that morning it came out, FWIW, didn't really feel the need to comment on it because I thought it was self evident to anyone with a modicum of sabermetric experience and Madrigal's stats pulled up, like frankly most of Fangraphs' work these days.  I don't think there is a single modern player that had an ISO under .100 that had more than 4 bWAR season.  I dutifully wait some nerd with a BR sub to run the query and prove me wrong (or right I guess)! paging @gusguyman

haha good guess, but you are actually looking for a nerd with disposable income. As a nerd who is still in grad school for another month, that is unfortunately not me. 

6 hours ago, joesaiditstrue said:

anybody else notice how the royals were pitching madrigal?  everything was up or up+inside.  his strikeout was up+inside  

do you think the league might have figured out a way to pitch him, or do you think his numbers are always gonna be roughly the same as right now?

I noted on one of his at bats Sunday that KC centerfielder was sooooo shallow it had to be somewhat embarrassing for Madrigal. I kind of like the guy but I agree he'll need to smash some liners over the heads of outfielders to keep 'em honest at least a tad. I do like Madrigal so far.

There is some progress in his power. 

 

0.78 ISO is still very low but more than doubled compared to last year. 

If he can increase that to like. 120 it would be nice. 

23 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think he's pretty much locked in to 300/340/370 type lines for now.  That's not bad and it's pretty useful as long as he's a solid defensive 2B long term.  He has a 27% pull rate.  That...is just not going to generate much power.  Unless he sells out for more power this profile is pretty much who he is.  I think he should start looking to pull the ball more starting next offseason.  It's too late right now to try and change his approach in season imo.

Would a viable comparison be Pete Rose? He had practically no power especially later in his career, and I could probably count on one hand the times I saw him pull the ball. That said, Pete Rose is a pretty high bar for justifying being a slap hittier.

On 5/10/2021 at 11:49 AM, ron883 said:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/nick-madrigal-is-good-can-he-be-great/

Good article on Madrigal. He's a good player currently. His 20 grade power and lack of walks holds him back. 

I think in time he will learn to take more walks as he does have a great batting eye. As long as he is a sold .300 hitter behind TA, I'm more than happy with Nick at 2B.

I still think Madrigal can easily add a little power. The guy hasn't really been able to lift during the off-season as he was recovering from an injury/surgery. Even his last year at Oregon State he hurt his wrist which can zap power even more. He'll never be a big home run hitter, but I could see him hitting a few homers and a lot more doubles.

Still no power and average is falling fast. Dude looks like a replacement level player right now.

Bummer that the Sox took Madrigal instead of Kelenic. Kelenic is gonna be an absolute monster. 

1 minute ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Still no power and average is falling fast. Dude looks like a replacement level player right now.

Bummer that the Sox took Madrigal instead of Kelenic. Kelenic is gonna be an absolute monster. 

ah yes lets cherry pick every single draft. Shame we didnt draft Mike Trout. Its also too bad we didnt draft Lux in 2016! Buehler in 2015! We can go on and on

9 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Still no power and average is falling fast. Dude looks like a replacement level player right now.

Bummer that the Sox took Madrigal instead of Kelenic. Kelenic is gonna be an absolute monster. 

You got that right.

6 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

ah yes lets cherry pick every single draft. Shame we didnt draft Mike Trout. Its also too bad we didnt draft Lux in 2016! Buehler in 2015! We can go on and on

Huge difference in these situations. Sox had all the info they could ever need about Kelenic and passed on him when he could have been a realistic pick. Buehler was never going to get picked by the Sox at that spot. Lux would have been picked by the Sox instead of Burdi but he got picked before the spot.

7 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

ah yes lets cherry pick every single draft. Shame we didnt draft Mike Trout. Its also too bad we didnt draft Lux in 2016! Buehler in 2015! We can go on and on

You seem to be the one cherry picking every draft. I'm just talking about the Madrigal pick in 18. Kelenic made his mlb debut this week and would look very nice in the Sox outfield right now.

Madrigal is pretty much worthless if he isn't hitting well over 300. Kid needs to step up his game.

1 minute ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

You seem to be the one cherry picking every draft. I'm just talking about the Madrigal pick in 18. Kelenic made his mlb debut this week and would look very nice in the Sox outfield right now.

Yes I was cherry picking, thats my point. I agree Kelenic would look great for us right now and I wish we would have drafted him but hindsight is 20/20.

You guys are also assuming Kelenic would have still developed the way he did if the Sox drafted him, which is far from a guarantee. This organization doesn’t exactly have the greatest track record as far as developing position players goes. But yes they still should’ve taken him over Madrigal. 

18 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Yes I was cherry picking, thats my point. I agree Kelenic would look great for us right now and I wish we would have drafted him but hindsight is 20/20.

Is it cherry picking if you said it at the time?

Madrigal is garbage.