Fire Rick Hahn

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Would like to see Brooks Boyer shitcanned as well, bring in some new blood and bring in a new generation of White Sox fans including the large young Spanish population. You have 1 million fans within 10-15 miles of the ball park not being heavily marketed to by any other team here.

Televise games on free TV, say 40-60 plus games on Univision/Telemundo plus a Saturday or Sunday Channel 7/9 English broadcast like the Yankees do. Stop with the covid credit card only bullshit and accept cash for tickets and concessions. Give out free tickets at schools and parks like Bill Veeck did to bring in new children and families. Don't market the team like a tobacco company with dying customers. Stop gauging fans with obscene parking rates. And f*** the 1983 uniforms, those fans including me are on their last legs.

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years. I’ve gotten the impression of significant cuts to the ticket sales staff in particular. We’ve definitely heard that suggested here. The White Sox used to be over the top in recruiting new fans and took advantage of every opportunity they could to grow their fan base even if it was only one person, they would always take any good press they could get. I no longer get that impression. I don’t think this is Brooks being bad at anything, I think he is now trying to manage a staff that is too small and too cheap to do the job the staff wants to do and is assigned to do. So, for example, when Clevinger wants to use “Gold digger” to come out to, everyone in the marketing department is so overworked that there’s no one who has the time and focus to tell them how bad of an idea that is.

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years. I’ve gotten the impression of significant cuts to the ticket sales staff in particular. We’ve definitely heard that suggested here. The White Sox used to be over the top in recruiting new fans and took advantage of every opportunity they could to grow their fan base even if it was only one person, they would always take any good press they could get. I no longer get that impression. I don’t think this is Brooks being bad at anything, I think he is now trying to manage a staff that is too small and too cheap to do the job the staff wants to do and is assigned to do. So, for example, when Clevinger wants to use “Gold digger” to come out to, everyone in the marketing department is so overworked that there’s no one who has the time and focus to tell them how bad of an idea that is.

Or do they all know they literally can’t be fired and have tenure, and just stopped caring? 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

Or do they all know they literally can’t be fired and have tenure, and just stopped caring? 

I think we definitely heard of a lot of people in that department being let go.

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I was excited and attended at least a dozen games in 2019, and listened to (or watched) every game in 2020. I thought the young core plus quality additions in RF, 2B and SP could give the Sox a legitimate chance at glory. The Sox Playoff Series didn't end well without a third starter, but really liked their effort. Lucas looked like he would anchor the staff for the next few years as a MLB Ace.

I thought Ricky Renteria should have played out the extension he signed in 2019 based on the team's effort and lack of starting pitching in 2020. That said, I was excited when AJ Hinch and other legitimate quality modern recent managers (Bud Black) were being discussed as his replacement, and thought the team could legitimately contend for more than "a playoff birth" over the next 4-5 seasons.

All excitement ended for me first after Jon Hayman's trial balloon regarding Tony's candidacy followed by his actual hiring. I was happy many players had a good 2021 season / four months. Happy for Tony as a person as he appeared healthy and sober for the first time at his exit press conference. Sad for most fans who expected and deserved better since 2020.

Now I hope for an epic 100-110 plus loss season to force a change (due in large part to attendance collapsing like the Bulls pre COVID). Perhaps Getz or another probable Reinsdorf replacement only has a 2-5% chance to succeed (like Kenny's lottery ticket in 2005) under Jerry, but it's 2-5% more than their current predicament/odds. Hahn needs to be totally gone for there to be any chance. Don't have much hope for this as fucking John Paxson is still with the Bulls.

Would like to see Brooks Boyer shitcanned as well, bring in some new blood and bring in a new generation of White Sox fans including the large young Spanish population. You have 1 million fans within 10-15 miles of the ball park not being heavily marketed to by any other team here.

Televise games on free TV, say 40-60 plus games on Univision/Telemundo plus a Saturday or Sunday Channel 7/9 English broadcast like the Yankees do. Stop with the covid credit card only bullshit and accept cash for tickets and concessions. Give out free tickets at schools and parks like Bill Veeck did to bring in new children and families. Don't market the team like a tobacco company with dying customers. Stop gauging fans with obscene parking rates. And f*** the 1983 uniforms, those fans including me are on their last legs.

Why would Brooks Boyer not be able to penetrate the market? Do you think he’s incapable of getting the next generation of fans grown and involved?

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years. I’ve gotten the impression of significant cuts to the ticket sales staff in particular. We’ve definitely heard that suggested here. The White Sox used to be over the top in recruiting new fans and took advantage of every opportunity they could to grow their fan base even if it was only one person, they would always take any good press they could get. I no longer get that impression. I don’t think this is Brooks being bad at anything, I think he is now trying to manage a staff that is too small and too cheap to do the job the staff wants to do and is assigned to do. So, for example, when Clevinger wants to use “Gold digger” to come out to, everyone in the marketing department is so overworked that there’s no one who has the time and focus to tell them how bad of an idea that is.

Budget cuts seem more likely to me as well as automation.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

Why would Brooks Boyer not be able to penetrate the market? Do you think he’s incapable of getting the next generation of fans grown and involved?

Budget cuts seem more likely to me as well as automation.

 

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years.

They lost a good portion of season ticket sales this year primarily because of the team. There is only so much a marketing person/team can do when the on field product is poor. I blame zero of that on Boyer.

That said, there hasn't been much of anything new on the marketing side the past several years. There has been definite angst in areas under his purview including negotiations with the announcers (Stone and Benetti), and also angst regarding Gordon Beckham being groomed as Stone's replacement.

Lip reported issues Farmeo had with the organization beyond Jerry, Hawk came out last month on how he was fired, and I've never heard him say a negative thing publicly ever about White Sox baseball. I'd also like to know Brooks' role in the Guaranteed Rate Stadium Naming fiasco.

Brooks has a lot of media defenders because he is willing to appear on radio / TV shows, and is the one amiable person willing to speak to media and fans who contact him from an otherwise unfriendly insular organization mirroring (and perhaps dictated by) their Chairman.

My main fear is Hahn or Brooks angling / being promoted (see quote from Lip's organization report below) into a Crane Kenney / Howard Pizer / John McDonough type President or Executive VP role. They need a legitimate Dave Dombrowski or Theo Epstein type person of that stature with a well respected and legitimate current / recent (no La Russa 2.0) baseball career to establish / create a legitimate organizational structure including baseball front office, coaching, scouting, analytics and player development staffs from scratch. 

Jerry will not make the required changes for many reasons. This is directed toward the next  ownership group. If it's Michael or Mellody as Chairman/Chairwoman, I am hoping there is no agreement or understanding that Hahn / Boyer will be promoted to the top of the organization chart after JR/KW/Pizer are gone. This organization desperately needs a clean slate. 

Quote

“Things started to change when Howard Pizer (Author’s Note: Pizer is the Senior Executive Vice-President) was told that he’d no longer be in charge of everyone, that some folks would no longer have to answer to him. That opened the door and some people are trying to get themselves into position to become a team president. Folks aren’t telling JR everything; in some cases they are lying to him.”

“Howard Pizer was the only guy who could tell JR ‘no’ and stop something. If people are angling to try to become a vice-president or president that’s just embarrassing.”

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[caulfield12]

The Royals are really terrible. 

We just hired Grifol... who was passed over for the "worst" managing job from inside of his own organization as well as Florida State where he formerly starred.

You can't sell the Royals' experience with Dayton Moore as suddenly a masterful sales point with Chris Getz... because the Sox will need to be better than KC in the future to win anything. 

 

"Getz spent 2015 and 2016 with the Kansas City Royals as a baseball operations assistant/player development, in which he assisted in minor-league operations and player personnel decisions."

“I'm excited about the opportunity to help teach and develop young talent in the organization where my professional career began,” Getz said in a press release. “I was drafted twice, worked through the minor leagues, and reached the major leagues with the White Sox. Through this journey, I was able to gain an understanding of the individuals within this organization, who I respect greatly.  The director of player development is an important role, and the health of the minor-league system is vital for major-league success.  I look forward to putting my all into making the White Sox a strong and winning organization.”
 
White Sox Senior VP/general manager Rick Hahn added: “We are pleased to add Chris’ intellect, background and energy to our front office. He is extremely well-regarded throughout the game, and we believe he is going to have a positive impact on the quality of play from rookie ball through Chicago."

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-white-sox/white-sox-name-chris-getz-director-player-development

Has the quality of play in our minor league system really improved? 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

2015	Ashe Russell	Right-handed pitcher	Cathedral High School (Indianapolis, Indiana)	21	[59]
2015	Nolan Watson	Right-handed pitcher	Lawrence North High School (Indianapolis, Indiana)

Edited April 23, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

The Royals drafted those two guys (while Getz was there) who ended up as complete busts as they tried to sustain their World Series window. 

They made an ill-advised contract offer to Alex Gordon which the White Sox actually bettered but he didn't feel comfortable enough leaving the KC and Nebraska areas that were so influential on his career. 

 

Does any of this sound familiar today? 

Call to the Pen

Jeffrey Flanagan spoke to the Royals General Manager Dayton Moore who claimed that “injuries and fatigue” took their toll on the 2016 team.

“I think health will certainly dictate that going forward, especially with Alex (Gordon) and Chris,” Moore said. “Of course, Chris (Young) was fighting through some [injuries] all season, and he had a huge workload for us in 2015 in a variety of roles. 

That's certainly something you don't hear much of anymore (blaming injuries for failure). And you don’t hear it because not only is it a lame rationalization, but it ignores the fact that every team has injuries to key players. The Indians, for instance, went the entire season without the services of Michael Brantley , the face of their team for the entire season. And the hapless New York Mets endured the one by one decimation of their starting staff.

When a General Manager starts talking like Moore did, that should be a red flag going up signaling that something may not be quite right in Royals Land. Because you don’t begin talking about next season by making excuses for last season. Or at least, you shouldn’t.

And besides praying for a healthy return of Alex Gordon, he might also be concerned about the disappearance of Eric Hosmer in the second half of the season after his MVP first half. Or the fact that the Indians and Tigers are still in the league and very much stand in the way of the Royals who can’t afford to play catch up again next season. 

Kansas City is not New York and things generally stay quiet in the media. And if there’s more than meets the eye here with trouble lurking beneath what we can see, it’s likely no one will know about it until someone leaves the organization with a few unkind words as he walks out the door."

https://calltothepen.com/2016/11/19/kansas-city-royals-window-opportunity-closed/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2018/03/13/royals-gm-dayton-moore-anti-porn-message-fight-new-drug/419952002/

Ofc we had this issue with the Royals at the time...which was the close partnership with the KC and Dayton Moore's front office team to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and numerous other "conservative" causes that went a bit outside the norm in running a professional sports team. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by caulfield12

[lostfan]

6 hours ago, wegner said:

I don't remember everyone being excited about Kimbrel at all.

I remember feeling like the Kimbrel trade was being made in response to fans complaining a move wasn't being made, and that particular move didn't make sense (we already had a closer and Madrigal was hurt at the time but, flawed player or no, what was the plan at 2B after he was gone?) even if Kimbrel didn't immediately fall off a steep cliff. I had to talk myself into being excited about that, which is something I have done a lot of as a fan of mediocre Chicago sports teams with bad management.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years. I’ve gotten the impression of significant cuts to the ticket sales staff in particular. We’ve definitely heard that suggested here. The White Sox used to be over the top in recruiting new fans and took advantage of every opportunity they could to grow their fan base even if it was only one person, they would always take any good press they could get. I no longer get that impression. I don’t think this is Brooks being bad at anything, I think he is now trying to manage a staff that is too small and too cheap to do the job the staff wants to do and is assigned to do. So, for example, when Clevinger wants to use “Gold digger” to come out to, everyone in the marketing department is so overworked that there’s no one who has the time and focus to tell them how bad of an idea that is.

I'd agree with you that this is spot on. Soxfest being cancelled alone probably saves Jerry a nice penny.

[Pale Sox]

I held onto hope for Hahn until they cancelled sox fest this off-season. That was wayyyy too long in hindsight. 

[caulfield12]

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-under-the-radar-acquisitions-2023

14 players Hahn could have signed for basically the price of one Benintendi... could we have used ANY help in the pen or starting depth? 

Of course not. 

A second baseman? 

Double down on Andrus without looking at his expected rapid decline offensively the past 4-5 seasons? 

RH outfield insurance for Colas shockingly struggling (not named Engel Leury or Mendick)? 

[caulfield12]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2023&month=0&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2023-01-01&enddate=2023-12-31&sort=6,d&page=1_30

Lambert Reynaldo Bummer all with 10 appearances or more. 

Lambert one of five most (over)used relievers in all of baseball... following Jimmy Cordero Track.  Lopez tied for second with 11.  Bummer tied for third with ten. 

Graveman and Kelly have always been severely limited in usage. 

Result=chaos

Bright spots recently Middleton and Gregory Santos

Edited April 23, 2023 by caulfield12

[bmags]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The Brewers have the pitching... the Cardinals more offense and the Cubs a good combination of youth and  now some veteran leadership mixed in. 

Always depends on health...Seiya is yet to come up with a full season of health and performance but still has a ton of untapped potential. 

More impressive to me is how often Hoyer has built a team with a league best defense.

[Highland]

So many of us has recognized that Rick Hahn should be fired but won't be. But if there was a real time to fire him, it is right now.

The FO is kidding themselves if they think this team is going to turn things around. What they need to do is hire a good baseball man outside of the organization to shake things up. It could help some this year and would send a message to the fan base that someone can see something dramatic has to be done. Hoping for the best will not address one problem this team has.

We fans can only hope things at least gets a little better. We can't do anything about FO feelings of denial.

[Panerista]

Hahn's probably a decent guy and he's great at negotiating contracts, but this isn't working and we need a culture change. 

 

Won't happen under Jerry. 

 

We give Hahn a lot of crap, but let's not forget Kenny Williams has been a waste of space just as long. Glad he won a World Series but we have been paying for it with his incompetence for the last 18 years.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Vacheron

[The Beast]

59 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

Hahn's probably a decent guy and he's great at negotiating contracts, but this isn't working and we need a culture change. 

 

Won't happen under Jerry. 

 

We give Hahn a lot of crap, but let's not forget Kenny Williams has been a waste of space just as long. Glad he won a World Series but we have been paying for it with his incompetence for the last 18 years.

People gave KW a hard time for different reasons. The phrase that was used to describe him was something like “I can’t spend $1.00 if I only have $0.50.” He would seem to get his players late. And he always seem to need to trade the farm system to get pitchers (Wells, Ritchie) and have to buy low and short term on free agents. 

While Hahn has had bad free agent signings, JR is pulling the budget strings. He did the same thing to KW.

[nitetrain8601]

1 hour ago, Vacheron said:

Hahn's probably a decent guy and he's great at negotiating contracts, but this isn't working and we need a culture change. 

 

Won't happen under Jerry. 

 

We give Hahn a lot of crap, but let's not forget Kenny Williams has been a waste of space just as long. Glad he won a World Series but we have been paying for it with his incompetence for the last 18 years.

The book out on him was that he was good at negotiating contracts. Based off of the signings and self-imposed cap, I'd say he's pretty awful at money overall. It's been posted countless dollars that he has wasted for the bullpen or for trash signings. Giving Leury what he did is proof enough that he isn't a great negotiator.

And this "I'm just as pissed as you..." shtick doesn't work if you constantly have to use it. You're the GM and you're essentially calling yourself a victim in terms of why things don't get done.

He sucks, plain and simple. Cubs dodged a bullet not hiring him. Sox are taking that bullet. But unfortunately, until Jerry sells (which he won't), nepotism will run rampant through this organization. So Hahn will fail upwards and we will get Hahn's nephew running things. SMDH

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

The book out on him was that he was good at negotiating contracts. Based off of the signings and self-imposed cap, I'd say he's pretty awful at money overall. It's been posted countless dollars that he has wasted for the bullpen or for trash signings. Giving Leury what he did is proof enough that he isn't a great negotiator.

And this "I'm just as pissed as you..." shtick doesn't work if you constantly have to use it. You're the GM and you're essentially calling yourself a victim in terms of why things don't get done.

He sucks, plain and simple. Cubs dodged a bullet not hiring him. Sox are taking that bullet. But unfortunately, until Jerry sells (which he won't), nepotism will run rampant through this organization. So Hahn will fail upwards and we will get Hahn's nephew running things. SMDH

If Hahn was just as pissed as us, he would realize it's a job he cannot do, whether that be  a lack of baseball instinct or any kind of restriction he is operating under. He would then resign. That comment, and I have heard him say it more than once, is just as empty as all the other comments he makes in public. But Rick and the White Sox don't care. They're right, everyone else is wrong. Actually winning games be danned.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Dick Allen

[Sleepy Harold]

11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

While I can’t prove this, I think there’s pretty good reason to think they dramatically cut their marketing budget over the last 2 years. I’ve gotten the impression of significant cuts to the ticket sales staff in particular. We’ve definitely heard that suggested here. The White Sox used to be over the top in recruiting new fans and took advantage of every opportunity they could to grow their fan base even if it was only one person, they would always take any good press they could get. I no longer get that impression. I don’t think this is Brooks being bad at anything, I think he is now trying to manage a staff that is too small and too cheap to do the job the staff wants to do and is assigned to do. So, for example, when Clevinger wants to use “Gold digger” to come out to, everyone in the marketing department is so overworked that there’s no one who has the time and focus to tell them how bad of an idea that is.

I knew someone that worked in the ticket office and quit midway through '21 because they just kept bombarding them with work and stopped offering any help to the reps that were still on board. Needless to say, he didnt give a glowing impression of the operation once he left. Even this year I had a rep call me about a ticket plan, only to quit a week later and pass it off to someone else. My interpretation is that retention is tough and it seems to be a thinner operation than what you'd expect on the ticketing side.  

[SonofaRoache]

We are a s%*# team in a s%*# division. Just ridiculous. 

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If Hahn was just as pissed as us, he would realize it's a job he cannot do, whether that be  a lack of baseball instinct or any kind of restriction he is operating under. He would then resign. That comment, and I have heard him say it more than once, is just as empty as all the other comments he makes in public. But Rick and the White Sox don't care. They're right, everyone else is wrong. Actually winning games be danned.

That has been a constant theme under this ownership. "WE know what we are doing...how DARE you even question us!"

The results say they don't.  

[oldsox]

This could end up being a ten-year thread.

[Texsox]

If a Hall of Fame manager couldn't get these guys to perform what chance does a guy with no manager experience have? 

[DirtySox]

How often are GMs fired/relieved of duty in the middle of a season? Asking for a friend.

Edited April 23, 2023 by DirtySox