Ken Rosenthal: Stay Away Tony

[tray]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

The more info that comes out, the more pissed off all Sox fans should be regarding how much Tony destroyed this team.  He deserves every critical thing written about him.   It’s just too bad it took this long for a change to happen.

It's untimely. Get it?

[southsider2k5]

I finally found the perfect clip to describe the relationship between the Sox and their fans.

 

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, tray said:

It's untimely. Get it?

Let the team rally around Cairo, the anti-TLR.  It was obvious all year by different quotes that the players knew the clubhouse was awful.  I know myself, and basically anyone that gets information passed along to them, has heard it’s a total mess.

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

After reading it again, so many things that stun me with how much of a “hit piece” this is (and not in a bad way).  The point about Cairo communicating better with Latino players, some coaches not feeling comfortable to express an opinion and the belief that the injuries were caused by frequent laziness.   It’s truly one of the more damming articles you will ever read regarding a coach’s status.

 

On 5/24/2022 at 9:45 AM, Chick Mercedes said:

That’s a curious one. Not sure how much they planned it or it unfolded for them despite their arrogant if not dysfunctional approach. But he’s coming around as a positive thing. I’m personally  reluctant to assign a lot of credit for them ‘filling a hole’

You can call it ageism, but there really aren't a lot of ways 20 or 30 somethings connect with old school 77 year olds in any workplace.

[Tnetennba]

20 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

All the more reason to watch him completely destroy his legacy. He will be gone way before any of us. We ultimately hold his future reputation with young fans. I know I’ll be sure to let younger fans know how overrated and extremely lucky he was as a manager over his shame of a career.

f*** his legacy.  I want my team to be good again.  The sooner he is no longer around the sooner that can feasibly happen.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

f*** his legacy.  I want my team to be good again.  The sooner he is no longer around the sooner that can feasibly happen.

Yep in a few years we’re going to be seeing a rebuilding team again while Tony gets to go to HOF ceremonies and get drunk with his old buddies talking about how baseball was better back in his day.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

55 minutes ago, bmags said:

Ken on a rampage since getting dropped by mlb tv

Understandable. Can't be a talking head on MLBTV unless you carry water for MLB and hush the critical side of yourself. At least Rosenthal did it in as nice a way as possible but the main message was ultra clear.

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Hawk Harrelson enters the chat.

Also, IIRC Kenny Williams sold his house and moved to Arizona last year. I don’t believe he’s had much to do with the day to day business of White Sox Baseball beyond advising and perhaps a special project here and there. Would consider this period ongoing and well deserved severance pay for having to live for over two decades under Jerry.

And again, he has already said this contract he is under will be his last. 

[reiks12]

What an amazing and well written article, he said it better than anyone else could have. Impressed at how aware Rosenthal is on how dysfunctional this organization is

[Highland]

As I wrote in another post, it is amazing how history has repeated itself with LaRussa. Back in 1986, most fans who had no love for LaRussa, felt for him as he was left twisting in the wind.  But that is what you get when you hire an old buddy and can't bring yourself to fire him. It would be insane for LaRussa to come back now. The White Sox should tell him he is done for this season and will not be returning in the next. End this now.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Rosenthal be that critical

I have, as he penned a scathing piece on the Sox situation vis a vis the Cubs in the early 00's. I supplied him with information for it after getting reports from sources and former players about some things that were happening including fans angerly confronting JR at White Sox fantasy camp to the point where Bill Melton had to step in and try to cool things down. 

Here is his column:

“While angst-ridden Red Sox and Cubs fans mutter about curses, White Sox fans are far more deserving of sympathy. Their franchise is in an inexcusable funk, and not simply because it operates with small-market restraint in the nation's third-largest city.

As the Angels and Marlins proved, teams can win with mid-sized payrolls. But the White Sox, burdened by bloated contracts, are going backward. And though they face genuine disadvantages trying to compete with the Cubs, most fans don't want to hear it. They're fed up with a team that hasn't been to the World Series since 1959 or won it since '17.

The first to go should be Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, the distrusted Brooklyn native who could re-energize the franchise by selling to Chicago interests. But because Reinsdorf gives no indication he wants out, the more likely departure is All-Star right fielder Magglio Ordonez, who will be a free agent at the end of the season.

Then what? As the Cubs have continued their ascent with a series of impressive offseason moves, the White Sox have lost six free agents -- an especially troubling development considering their farm system no longer is providing impact replacements.

Even in the weak A.L. Central, the Sox might not contend with Miguel Olivo at catcher, Willie Harris at second and Aaron Rowand in center. Their rotation will suffer from the loss of Bartolo Colon. Their bullpen could be OK ... if closer Billy Koch regains his velocity.

The team's projected $64 million payroll reflects its poor home attendance, which ranked only 21st in the majors last season. But general manager Ken Williams has left himself little payroll flexibility, committing $53.375 million to eight players, including two disappointments, Koch and first baseman Paul Konerko.

The anger in Chicago is palpable.                     

Some fans confronted Williams during a heated question-and-answer session at the team's winter festival, and the G.M. sniped back. Others grilled Reinsdorf during a Q-and-A at the team's fantasy camp in Tucson, Ariz., and former Sox player Bill Melton reportedly tried to intervene before Reinsdorf continued taking questions.

The negativity drives Sox officials’ nuts; the Cubs draw even when they lose, thanks to the party atmosphere at Wrigley Field. The Sox, though, had better attendance than the Cubs every season but one from 1951 to '67 and also from '81 to '84. The opening of their new park in '91 should have sparked a renaissance. Instead, the Sox have drawn fewer than 2 million for 10 straight seasons -- an incomprehensible streak for a team with a new park. 

U.S. Cellular Field is part of the problem; the White Sox opened their cookie-cutter facility a year before the Orioles launched Camden Yards, the retro park that revolutionized the sport. The Sox since have made extensive renovations, the latest being the removal of the top eight rows from the absurdly steep upper deck. Yet, even if they transform the park into an asset, better attendance won't be assured.

U.S. Cellular is on the south side of Chicago, and inbound evening rush-hour traffic from the north and west has become oppressive. Wrigley is more accessible, and the Cubs start the majority of their games in the afternoon. They also draw a sizable percentage of fans from surrounding neighborhoods. The Sox, playing in a more depressed section of the city, soon might receive a similar benefit; the area west of the park is beginning to revive.

Reinsdorf's cynical ownership, however, remains an enduring obstacle.

After taking over in 1981, Reinsdorf and vice chairman Eddie Einhorn drove away popular legends such as Bill Veeck, the team's previous owner, and broadcaster Harry Caray, who left for the Cubs. In 1988, the owners extracted a new, publicly financed stadium from the state after nearly moving the Sox to St. Petersburg, Fla. And the team hasn't recovered from the '94 strike, a showdown advocated by Reinsdorf, a hawk on labor issues. The Sox had the third-best record in the majors when the season was canceled.

It is not easy to categorize Reinsdorf: He ordered the notorious "White Flag" trade in '97 but also has authorized bold moves -- signing Albert Belle and trading for Colon. Friends and employees tell of his kindness and generosity. Still, the Sox suffer from a severe image problem, and it starts with an owner many perceive as arrogant and stubborn.

Even at their worst, the Cubs always had likable players -- Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, Sammy Sosa. The Sox, by contrast, traded Sosa to the Cubs for George Bell, and now the White Sox's biggest stars are the quiet Ordonez and the self-absorbed Frank Thomas. One rival executive says Reinsdorf hired Ozzie Guillen as manager to give the team a personality.

Williams never stops trying as G.M., but he failed in his goal to get to the playoffs last season and create additional revenue for the '04 payroll. The Cubs came within one win of going to the World Series, then added first baseman Derrek Lee and reliever LaTroy Hawkins. The Sox finished four games out of first place in the A.L. Central and added infielder Juan Uribe and relievers Cliff Politte and Shingo Takatsu while suffering major defections.

Their fans have a right to be mad. The Cubs shouldn't own the town.” – Ken Rosenthal, senior baseball writer, The Sporting News, February 16, 2004.

[Tnetennba]

This is what, the 2nd scathing piece by a national writer about TLR in the past week?  Is it too tinfoil hat to think Hahn or Kenny are spilling the dirt now that everyone can see a tangible difference between TLR and even a semi-competent manager?

[Lip Man 1]

Regarding this current piece by Ken, it is hard to argue with any of it.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Lip Man 1

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

This is what, the 2nd scathing piece by a national writer about TLR in the past week?  Is it too tinfoil hat to think Hahn or Kenny are spilling the dirt now that everyone can see a tangible difference between TLR and even a semi-competent manager?

If it is Hahn or Kenny since he's on his last legs any way, JR might decide to fire Hahn. I'd like to think TLR will be gone too but wouldn't put it past JR to make him more important than ever.

[Kyyle23]

Patiently waiting the response of one person who doesn’t look past HOF credentials and certainly doesn’t care about the record 

[Kyyle23]

11 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

This is what, the 2nd scathing piece by a national writer about TLR in the past week?  Is it too tinfoil hat to think Hahn or Kenny are spilling the dirt now that everyone can see a tangible difference between TLR and even a semi-competent manager?

It kind of sounds like KW to me.  On the score crosstalk today they were talking about how he hasn’t been at the park a lot this season,  has been MIA a lot

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

It kind of sounds like KW to me.  On the score crosstalk today they were talking about how he hasn’t been at the park a lot this season,  has been MIA a lot

Nightingale is a long time KW go to.  Not too far of a stretch to think he would also reach out to Rosenthal.  It does fit.  KW does seem like he's towards the end of his Sox tenure as well.

[pcq]

That dude is banned forever!! Stay out of White Sox bidness!

[bmags]

58 minutes ago, fathom said:

Let the team rally around Cairo, the anti-TLR.  It was obvious all year by different quotes that the players knew the clubhouse was awful.  I know myself, and basically anyone that gets information passed along to them, has heard it’s a total mess.

You can really see why the organization resists outside talent coming into management positions so much. So much easier to create the ruse that it's everyone and nobodies fault...then when somebody falls in and actually tries and shows how big a difference it is the house of cards comes falling down.

[The Kids Can Play]

Phenomenal letter! I pray this open letter gets a lot of traction nationally besides locally to embarrass and criticize Tony and Jerry to the fullest.

Well the table is set! If Tony does come back and he ruins this team's momentum that Cairo has turned around, then Tony and Jerry will look even look more stupid and foolish.

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, tray said:

TLR is not and was not  going to return with heart issues and a new pacemaker installed, even if he wanted to.  Therefore "fire TLR "is a moot point and the article is a distraction for a team in the midst of a late play-off run.  Really, give up the TLR nonsense and move on. It has become a distraction.

No

[ScootsMcGoots]

With all the publicity this is getting, it would be extremely foolish to bring him back. Even more so than before. The front office would look incredibly incompetent and  disconnected with reality. This has to be it.

[fathom]

5 minutes ago, ScooterMcGuire said:

With all the publicity this is getting, it would be extremely foolish to bring him back. Even more so than before. The front office would look incredibly incompetent and  disconnected with reality. This has to be it.

All the more reason for people to leak stuff to Ken

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, DirtySox said:

Rosenthal: An Open Letter to Tony La Russa

This whole piece is wonderful and spot on. 

More in the actual article, which I assume is paywalled. Quoted a bunch of what seems relevant.

https://theathletic.com/3593415/2022/09/14/rosenthal-tony-la-russa-white-sox-manager-future/

Now do Jerry

With Lip’s 2004/2005 article, an update on Jerry. Perhaps it will spark another WS like the first one did.

[gusguyman]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, it is a public confirmation that everything about the Tony LaRussa regime has been a worse case scenario.

[Qanon has entered the chat]

I would not be the least bit surprised if this "information" that Rosenthal got came from Rick, Kenny, or both.

It makes a ton of sense for this to be Hahn. He essentially got demoted when TLR was hired, and then has seen his reputation go from exec of the year to trash tier in a year. Then TLR finally leaves, the team starts to play to its talent again, he thinks he can save his job and his reputation, only for Jerry to try to enable TLR to come back again. If Hahn thinks he is on the hot seat anyway, or is just tired of being (in his mind unfairly) judged for the team's failures, why not take a shot on a hit piece like this. Maybe he finally got tired of taking Jerry/TLR's s%*# and lashed out.