Notice how Merkin and Hahn are trying to make trade deadline just as much about Grifol job security

[caulfield12]

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/how-will-white-sox-approach-2023-trade-deadline
 

The last half of the article is classic Hahn bullshit…taking the middle course of only trading Gio Grandal Middleton and maybe Lynn since all could be or are in their last years with the Sox.

Even that would be a little shocking since there’s zero depth to replace two holes in the rotation, let alone three with Clevinger.  Then your other two starters can never give you much more than 5+.  That’s just never going to work without the best bullpen in the history of the game and best team defense and running game to take advantage of the new style of play like the Orioles or Guardians or Rays.

The only thing the Sox actually possess is the most expensive bullpen in history…but certainly not the most effective.

[chitownsportsfan]

Doesn't matter really, we're into the denouement for this story. They only real question is how long until JR passes so we can move into a new story.

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/how-will-white-sox-approach-2023-trade-deadline
 

The last half of the article is classic Hahn bullshit…taking the middle course of only trading Gio Grandal Middleton and maybe Lynn since all could be or are in their last years with the Sox.

Even that would be a little shocking since there’s zero depth to replace two holes in the rotation, let alone three with Clevinger.  Then your other two starters can never give you much more than 5+.  That’s just never going to work without the best bullpen in the history of the game and best team defense and running game to take advantage of the new style of play like the Orioles or Guardians or Rays.

The only thing the Sox actually possess is the most expensive bullpen in history…but certainly not the most effective.

Hahn has always been full of s%*# and obviously a disastrous GM.

When you look back at his credentials, why would we expect him to be good as a GM? Ok after he graduated from Michigan he went to Harvard law school and then got an MBA from Northwestern. Those are fine academic achievements, but they have nothing to do with judging baseball prospects, judging ML pro players, drafting, developing a strong farm system, negotiating solid trades and signing productive free agent, etc. 

His first job after all the college was as an sports agent which has nothing to do with prearing to be a good GM.

Then his second job he somehow lucked into the assistant GM under Kenny.

Here is what we do know:

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Hahn has always been full of s%*# and obviously a disastrous GM.

When you look back at his credentials, why would we expect him to be good as a GM? Ok after he graduated from Michigan he went to Harvard law school and then got an MBA from Northwestern. Those are fine academic achievements, but they have nothing to do with judging baseball prospects, judging ML pro players, drafting, developing a strong farm system, negotiating solid trades and signing productive free agent, etc. 

His first job after all the college was as an sports agent which has nothing to do with prearing to be a good GM.

Then his second job he somehow lucked into the assistant GM under Kenny.

Here is what we do know:

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

Haven't we seen plenty of baseball lifers struggle at the GM role, and guys who didn't have any experience with playing or scouting baseball have success? Andrew Friedman comes to mind as his wikipedia page suggests that he only played a little baseball in college and then went on to work for BearStearns once he graduated. 

Being able to scout players yourself is only one part of the job. Understanding making deals, understanding how to surround yourself with good people, managing risk, understanding your financial situation, managing outreach and marketing, these are all tasks that don't necessarily require you to be able to personally scout baseball players. Many of these are business tasks and management tasks. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

16 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

 

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

Yeah it makes no sense. There has to be some non-baseball reason why Hahn has perhaps the longest leash in the history of failed sports GMs.

[WBWSF]

22 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Hahn has always been full of s%*# and obviously a disastrous GM.

When you look back at his credentials, why would we expect him to be good as a GM? Ok after he graduated from Michigan he went to Harvard law school and then got an MBA from Northwestern. Those are fine academic achievements, but they have nothing to do with judging baseball prospects, judging ML pro players, drafting, developing a strong farm system, negotiating solid trades and signing productive free agent, etc. 

His first job after all the college was as an sports agent which has nothing to do with prearing to be a good GM.

Then his second job he somehow lucked into the assistant GM under Kenny.

Here is what we do know:

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

5. He grew up a Cubs fan.

[The Grinder]

2 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

5. He grew up a Cubs fan.

He's purposely sabotaging  us, I knew it

[4uckOffCommieScum]

I imagine if the Sox hired someone like Francona, he’d probably say it would take more than a few months to overhaul the system and implement a new culture throughout the organization, rather than delivering ongoing professions of believing in it, a la Grifol.

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

5. He grew up a Cubs fan.

I know and his big claim to fame is he wrote a letter to Dallas Green at 11 years old suggesting trades Green should make. Evidently Green wrote him back and that's when Hahn was convinced he would be a great GM.  LOL!

[Timmy U]

Isn’t there an entire thread discussing the exact Hahn quote at the end of this article? Merkin is making Hamburger Helper out of the one time Hahn spoke to the media. Mods should merge.

[caulfield12]

48 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Hahn has always been full of s%*# and obviously a disastrous GM.

When you look back at his credentials, why would we expect him to be good as a GM? Ok after he graduated from Michigan he went to Harvard law school and then got an MBA from Northwestern. Those are fine academic achievements, but they have nothing to do with judging baseball prospects, judging ML pro players, drafting, developing a strong farm system, negotiating solid trades and signing productive free agent, etc. 

His first job after all the college was as an sports agent which has nothing to do with prearing to be a good GM.

Then his second job he somehow lucked into the assistant GM under Kenny.

Here is what we do know:

1. He never played baseball.

2. He never was a baseball scout. 

3. He never learned the various aspects of a successful baseball organization by moving up the ranks and doing different meaningful positions.

4. Then when Hahn did fail miserably as GM, the owner was ignorant, stubborn and ridiculously loyal to a detrimental point, in not firing Hahn. This of course is the basic definition of Insanity.

 

Theo Epstein’s lack of athletic history is often mentioned as well.

That said, being a sports agent is relevant…it led to Sale, Q and Eaton extensions, and rebuild trades.

As well as Anderson and Robert (partially KW and Paddy and Abreu).

 

Those five players being willing to sign “team friendly” deals at those places and times in life are the reason Hahn still has his job, ostensibly.

But all the other extensions and drafts and FA moves have pretty much added up to nothing at this point in time…negligible trade value or fWAR/replacement value or however you want to categorize or characterize it.

And the Hahn negotiating legend has disappeared with the second wave in guys like Giolito, Cease and Kopech who haven’t been nearly as easy to negotiate with for a number of reasons.

Whether Hahn was lucky before or is unlucky now, it all points towards being one of the most challenging spots to rebuild from in White Sox history…the only franchises who might have bigger obstacles being the Royals and Rockies across the entire sport.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Timmy U said:

Isn’t there an entire thread discussing the exact Hahn quote at the end of this article? Merkin is making Hamburger Helper out of the one time Hahn spoke to the media. Mods should merge.

Yes, it was put out there a couple of weeks ago and is now being regurgitated due to the lack of timeliness that’s becoming more and more readily apparent with Fegan off the daily beat.

Team is in suspended animation…still too close to completely give up on but fatally flawed simultaneously.

[Lip Man 1]

From what sources told me about Hahn this past off season which I printed in a story in November:

“The issue with Rick is he’s got all these guys around him like Jeremy Haber (Author’s Note: Haber is the Assistant General Manager), friends from Michigan or someplace and they aren’t baseball guys. They didn’t play the game and have no real idea of what it takes. D.J. (Author’s Note: Sox broadcaster Darrin Jackson) and others have said the same thing.”

“I thought Hahn was prepared to do well, his last few years as assistant G.M. he was out on the road, watching guys, scouting, trusting what he saw. Then when he became G.M. he started getting guys like J.B. Schuck.”

“Rick won’t leave in part because his wife doesn’t want to leave the area unless it is for a job in California where she’s from.”

“Hahn actually is in charge, more than people think, although Kenny has input and of course JR has the final say.”

“Hahn put his foot down with Renteria, he wanted his manager to start doing what he (Hahn) asked.”

“Hahn is a go-along, get along type of guy, I don’t want to say he was dour this past season but there was a defensiveness to him that you could see especially when Tony was mentioned.”

“I’ll use a political term to describe Rick, he’s a ‘filibusterer.’ When Theo Epstein was running the Cubs everything he said meant something, if you went back to reread what he said you could read between the lines and figure out what he was saying. With Rick you heard what he said but then when you went back and reread his comments you realized he said less than you thought he did when he first spoke.”

“In 2016 when the rebuild started I thought he did the right thing and he deserved credit for that. I also thought at the time that giving out those long-term deals was good. No one could have foreseen how those contracts impacted those guys and their effort. But it was clear when Tony LaRussa was hired that Rick really is powerless. I just don’t have a lot of faith that he can get this done. And words matter, when he talked about “Multiple championships” and “Call me after the parade”…if you are going to be arrogant like that you need to deliver and he hasn’t.”

 

[The Kids Can Play]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Haven't we seen plenty of baseball lifers struggle at the GM role, and guys who didn't have any experience with playing or scouting baseball have success? Andrew Friedman comes to mind as his wikipedia page suggests that he only played a little baseball in college and then went on to work for BearStearns once he graduated. 

Being able to scout players yourself is only one part of the job. Understanding making deals, understanding how to surround yourself with good people, managing risk, understanding your financial situation, managing outreach and marketing, these are all tasks that don't necessarily require you to be able to personally scout baseball players. Many of these are business tasks and management tasks. 

Actually Freidman was a highly regarded baseball player in high school and went to Tulane on a baseball scholarship. He suffered a bad injury in his freshman year and then a second bad one his sophomore year, which unfortunately ended his college baseball career. His lack of baseball time in college was due to injury and not that he wasn't good player or didn't understand the game.

The other fact is, Andrew Friedman knew the Rays owner Stuart Sternberg even before Sternberg bought the Rays. They knew each other from their investment/analyst brokerage days. When Steinberg bought the Rays he brought Friedman along with him for his Rays front office. Friedman's first job was as a player development director and not as an Asst GM like Hahn. All the years Friedman was in Tampa, they were always the lowest payroll in baseball or close to the bottom. Thus he had to learn developing a farm system because he didn't have money to spend on expensive free agents or make trades to get established veterans. 

In fact, in a interview with Friedman while with the current Dodgers, he was asked by a reporter why he was so successful. He alluded to the fact, that learning to be a GM with no payroll in TB, forced him to learn how to build a baseball team the correct way, which was through the farm system. Hahn never had to learn that aspect.

This is why Friedman was so valuable to the Dodgers. He could now spend endless money, but still also bring his knowledge of building a successful farm system to the Dodgers. 

If you go look at the good successful younger GM's today like Mike Elias in Baltimore or Mike Chernoff of Cleveland and you look at their resume, they worked up through the organization in different critical jobs. They also played baseball.

I'm sorry but, Hahn had none of these modern day executive training responsibilities as the top young GMs have experienced.

I get there are other aspects of being a great GM other than scouting, like negotiating deals, knowing how make solid trades, hiring good managers, etc, but obviously Hahn hasn't learned any of those skills either.

The bottom line is, Hahn sucks as a GM. The longer he is here, the longer it will take for the White Sox to ever be a successful winning playoff contender.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2017/11/23/theo-epstein-brookline-field-goal-contests-horror-game-6-boston-sports-memories
 

Looking back on Theo Epstein’s rise as a GM, it’s obvious that he at least had that fundamental understanding of team sports and competition…despite his physical limitations.

It’s where his drive about winning and organizational culture basically came from.

 

And if there’s ONE thing the White Sox have consistently lacked, it’s a unifying set of rules and principles for the entire organization like the Braves, Astros, Rays, Dodgers and Cardinals.

A major reason for this is the Sox major league rosters were always sewn together haphazardly with baling wire from 10-15 different teams…the minor leaguers failed to advance as a wave or unit, year after year building upon previous successes and growing to trust their teammates for 3-5 years together before hitting the big leagues.  They never could rely on teammates and coaches…just themselves.  Hence, all the current trust issues prevalent across the entire organization.

[The Kids Can Play]

22 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

From what sources told me about Hahn this past off season which I printed in a story in November:

“The issue with Rick is he’s got all these guys around him like Jeremy Haber (Author’s Note: Haber is the Assistant General Manager), friends from Michigan or someplace and they aren’t baseball guys. They didn’t play the game and have no real idea of what it takes. D.J. (Author’s Note: Sox broadcaster Darrin Jackson) and others have said the same thing.”

“I thought Hahn was prepared to do well, his last few years as assistant G.M. he was out on the road, watching guys, scouting, trusting what he saw. Then when he became G.M. he started getting guys like J.B. Schuck.”

“Rick won’t leave in part because his wife doesn’t want to leave the area unless it is for a job in California where she’s from.”

“Hahn actually is in charge, more than people think, although Kenny has input and of course JR has the final say.”

“Hahn put his foot down with Renteria, he wanted his manager to start doing what he (Hahn) asked.”

“Hahn is a go-along, get along type of guy, I don’t want to say he was dour this past season but there was a defensiveness to him that you could see especially when Tony was mentioned.”

“I’ll use a political term to describe Rick, he’s a ‘filibusterer.’ When Theo Epstein was running the Cubs everything he said meant something, if you went back to reread what he said you could read between the lines and figure out what he was saying. With Rick you heard what he said but then when you went back and reread his comments you realized he said less than you thought he did when he first spoke.”

“In 2016 when the rebuild started I thought he did the right thing and he deserved credit for that. I also thought at the time that giving out those long-term deals was good. No one could have foreseen how those contracts impacted those guys and their effort. But it was clear when Tony LaRussa was hired that Rick really is powerless. I just don’t have a lot of faith that he can get this done. And words matter, when he talked about “Multiple championships” and “Call me after the parade”…if you are going to be arrogant like that you need to deliver and he hasn’t.”

 

Your best point of why Hahn has failed, is he surrounded himself with people within the Sox organization who weren't good at there job or his Michigan buddies. What he should have done, which is what all top executives do in any corp or business, is go find the "Best Practices" type people. For the entire top to bottom White Sox organizational chart, Hahn should have recruited and surrounded himself with people at every critical position that came from successful teams like the Rays, Dodgers, Yanks, and Braves, etc.

I also agree with you it was the right move in 2016 to do a total rebuild and some of his initial trades and signings looked good. However as time went on, he made several bad trades, signings and most importantly, allowed the farm system to become garbage. I'm sorry but if your start failing at your job there is no entitlement to keep your job. He shouldn't be able to live off his past record or that his intentions were good. He simply didn't keep the team moving in a forward positive direction. He doesn't deserve to keep getting more attempts at this.

[South Side Hit Men]

Hahn and Merkin are bitches.

Go Blow.

[JoshPR]

Pedro done some goofy things but Hahn should be the first one fired

[Lip Man 1]

16 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Your best point of why Hahn has failed, is he surrounded himself with people within the Sox organization who weren't good at there job or his Michigan buddies. What he should have done, which is what all top executives do in any corp or business, is go find the "Best Practices" type people. For the entire top to bottom White Sox organizational chart, Hahn should have recruited and surrounded himself with people at every critical position that came from successful teams like the Rays, Dodgers, Yanks, and Braves, etc.

I also agree with you it was the right move in 2016 to do a total rebuild and some of his initial trades and signings looked good. However as time went on, he made several bad trades, signings and most importantly, allowed the farm system to become garbage. I'm sorry but if your start failing at your job there is no entitlement to keep your job. He shouldn't be able to live off his past record or that his intentions were good. He simply didn't keep the team moving in a forward positive direction. He doesn't deserve to keep getting more attempts at this.

Just to be clear none of what I quoted came from me, these are direct quotes from others who know the organization. 

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Just to be clear none of what I quoted came from me, these are direct quotes from others who know the organization. 

I get that, but Hahn still rolled the dice with too many people within the Sox org versus going to the outside for FO talent from the top teams.

I also think if you look at the scouts and coaches in the Sox system and you compare them to perhaps the Rays or Dodgers, there is probably a huge difference in their approach and knowledge, which again is the responsibility of Hahn that he totally screwed up on.

[Lip Man 1]

35 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I get that, but Hahn still rolled the dice with too many people within the Sox org versus going to the outside for FO talent from the top teams.

I also think if you look at the scouts and coaches in the Sox system and you compare them to perhaps the Rays or Dodgers, there is probably a huge difference in their approach and knowledge, which again is the responsibility of Hahn that he totally screwed up on.

I agree with this.

I was on a podcast yesterday where I went into a deep dive in a lot of these areas if you are interested:

https://www.southsidesox.com/2023/6/22/23770543/sox-populi-white-sox-podcast-150-no-historical-precedent

Edited June 23, 2023 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with this.

I was on a podcast yesterday where I went into a deep dive in a lot of these areas if you are interested:

https://www.southsidesox.com/2023/6/22/23770543/sox-populi-white-sox-podcast-150-no-historical-precedent

• While eminently mockable, there is something to a “Cardinal Way” or “Dodgers Way” approach, something the White Sox don’t have, and haven’t for 60 or 70 years

Something we just pointed out earlier in the thread. 

In fact, Sox are going in the opposite direction, cutting affilitates/coaches/staffing and just baseball ops in general. 

They also never came close to ramping up to the 15-25 or 30 staff mark others have dedicated to analytics and modernized approaches to the game. 

[Johno]

where both Hahn and the entire White Sox organization failed was at the different mlb drafts.   we tanked for all of those years yet basically nothing came out of their low picks.   Fulmer, Collins, Madrigal, Vaughn (yes, Vaughn is fair at best) have all failed.  you cannot miss on all of those first round picks and expect to win, yet the white Sox did.   Add in the fact that they are incapable of developing any talent and you have an organization that is an absolute disaster!!!!

[Lip Man 1]

I've noticed that lately even Merkin is coming to terms with reality and stating in "nice" terms the rebuild is a failure (although he still refuses to blame his friend, Michigan grad, like himself, Hahn)

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

In 2016 when the rebuild started I thought he did the right thing and he deserved credit for that. I also thought at the time that giving out those long-term deals was good.

 

I was against all of it. But Hahn was a hero on this board and in Chicago. People were ecstatic about the tank job/rebuild. They loved seeing the losses pile up and the roster change. The sentiment was almost like this tank job was the only way to go and the Sox were gonna reap the benefits of the tank, getting better draft choices and those few blockbuster deals: Cease, Eloy superstars. Kopech, Gio and even Lopez lol. Hahn was beloved during the tank job; go back and look at the posts. Fraud.