pmb0928 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, ptatc said: Unfortunately, we don't train them the way we used to. That's the issue. Its because they pitch them to death all summer from the time they are 9 years old for the dads who are trying to live through their kids. These guys should throw 200 innings til their about 30 and then be 150-175 after that. Look at every HOF starter for the last 30 years, they werent babied and limited to 125 innings ever. Now its commonplace. We make them weak John Smoltz threw 200 innings for many years, then had TJ surgery, became a RP for a few years and then went back to being a SP who threw 238, 222 and 203 after 4 years as a RP. And here we are talking about Crochet getting past 50 innings. Is that why you drafted him first round? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, pmb0928 said: Its because they pitch them to death all summer from the time they are 9 years old for the dads who are trying to live through their kids. These guys should throw 200 innings til their about 30 and then be 150-175 after that. Look at every HOF starter for the last 30 years, they werent babied and limited to 125 innings ever. Now its commonplace. We make them weak John Smoltz threw 200 innings for many years, then had TJ surgery, became a RP for a few years and then went back to being a SP who threw 238, 222 and 203 after 4 years as a RP. And here we are talking about Crochet getting past 50 innings. Is that why you drafted him first round? Because he was throwing 102-103 and they thought he could add secondary pitches like Sale and that somehow his body would hold together...contrary to all we know about pitchers with that frame/body mass combined with max velo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 16 minutes ago, pmb0928 said: Its because they pitch them to death all summer from the time they are 9 years old for the dads who are trying to live through their kids. These guys should throw 200 innings til their about 30 and then be 150-175 after that. Look at every HOF starter for the last 30 years, they werent babied and limited to 125 innings ever. Now its commonplace. We make them weak John Smoltz threw 200 innings for many years, then had TJ surgery, became a RP for a few years and then went back to being a SP who threw 238, 222 and 203 after 4 years as a RP. And here we are talking about Crochet getting past 50 innings. Is that why you drafted him first round? Very true. One of the best predictors for future injuries is specialization of sports too early. Smoltz is a good example as he was a great basketball player through most of high school. COVID really hurt the kid as he didn't get that season of starting in college to build a base for pro ball. However, comparing any player to an HOF player really isn't fair. Edited January 10 by ptatc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Because he was throwing 102-103 and they thought he could add secondary pitches like Sale and that somehow his body would hold together...contrary to all we know about pitchers with that frame/body mass combined with max velo. Look what happened to Sale when he left the Sox, and Boston let him do what he wanted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 54 minutes ago, pmb0928 said: I guess this just makes me laugh. Guys all used to pitch 200+ innings and we are talking about a first round pick not being able to go 80 innings. Give me a break. I threw that many innings in high school. Some of these guys need to just man up. I am glad Crochet wants to be a SP, wasting a top 15 pick on a RP is just dumb. You know how to get to where you can pitch close to 200 innings? You actually pitch more and more and build up your arm strength. Real pitchers like Scherzer and Verlander are throwing more innings in their 40s than these p*****s. Those guys threw 10 and 15 years of 200 innings. Verlander has TJ surgery and what does he do? Throws 175 innings and has a 18-4 record. These guys can't pitch because their arm has some soreness nowadays. Its supposed to be sore, get out there and throw some more and build it up while its a little sore. You ever hear of Verlander and Scherzer complain of a sore forearm. Let Crochet pitch and let him be sore, if he is a man he will throw 15 innings. Otherwise cut his ass loose. Well in order to throw more inning, you need to first be able to stay on the mound. Something he hasn’t done yet in any season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Ideally the back of the bullpen should have a strong Closer coupled with high leverage LH and RH pitchers as needed for the 7th and 8th. My own choice for Closer as it stands would be Kopech but I have never heard him indicate he would consider that, even for more money. Then Greg Santos (RH) and Garrett Crochet (LH) as our last line of defense in the 7th and 8th. As memory serves, in 2023, one of the worst things about the team was giving up the ghost late in games. Even when a starter got shelled early, many times our much maligned offense came back only to see leads floundered by our bullpen, walking lead-off hitters with one run leads and getting pulled after 3 batters after they could not retire the side. All-in-all, I am not sure I want to see the Sox trade Cease. In order to even be respectable Sox need at least 3 decent TOR starters (perhaps one or two Aces or stoppers) and a well constructed bullpen. Offense is a bit far away, but not that far away to grab some wins with bloops from little guys and blasts from big guys, IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, tray said: Ideally the back of the bullpen should have a strong Closer coupled with high leverage LH and RH pitchers as needed for the 7th and 8th. My own choice for Closer as it stands would be Kopech but I have never heard him indicate he would consider that, even for more money. Then Greg Santos (RH) and Garrett Crochet (LH) as our last line of defense in the 7th and 8th. As memory serves, in 2023, one of the worst things about the team was giving up the ghost late in games. Even when a starter got shelled early, many times our much maligned offense came back only to see leads floundered by our bullpen, walking lead-off hitters with one run leads and getting pulled after 3 batters after they could not retire the side. All-in-all, I am not sure I want to see the Sox trade Cease. In order to even be respectable Sox need at least 3 decent TOR starters (perhaps one or two Aces or stoppers) and a well constructed bullpen. Offense is a bit far away, but not that far away to grab some wins with bloops from little guys and blasts from big guys, IMO. 19 times last season the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later...and wound up losing the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 33 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: 19 times last season the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later...and wound up losing the game. Unfortunately, they lost the primary bullpen pitcher to cancer. That was a significant part of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 14 hours ago, ptatc said: Very true. One of the best predictors for future injuries is specialization of sports too early. I agree 1,000% on early specialization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 8 minutes ago, JoeC said: I agree 1,000% on early specialization. This is a hot topic for research for overuse injuries in Sports right now. Many articles being published on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, ptatc said: Unfortunately, they lost the primary bullpen pitcher to cancer. That was a significant part of that. That’s a bit of an excuse. Hendriks publicly announced his cancer diagnosis on January 8, 2023, well before the season started. Knowing they lost their Allstar closer, who did they bring in to replace him? It definitely didn’t have to be as bad as the stat @Lip Man 1 posted. The Royals signed Aroldis Chapman on January 27, 2023 for a paltry $3.75 million. Think he wouldn’t have chose to sign on as the White Sox closer over going to the Royals for the same money? Edited January 10 by WhiteSox2023 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: That’s a bit of an excuse. Hendriks publicly announced his cancer diagnosis on January 8, 2023, well before the season started. Knowing they lost their Allstar closer, who did they bring in to replace him? They had Kendall Graveman on the roster, who was a closer with Seattle. At some point, the players have to produce. I wouldn't have wanted Chapman on this team. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: That’s a bit of an excuse. Hendriks publicly announced his cancer diagnosis on January 8, 2023, well before the season started. Knowing they lost their Allstar closer, who did they bring in to replace him? It definitely didn’t have to be as bad as the stat @Lip Man 1 posted. The Royals signed Aroldis Chapman on January 27, 2023 for a paltry $3.75 million. Think he wouldn’t have chose to sign on as the White Sox closer over going to the Royals for the same money? No it's not. They had a pretty high payroll to begin with and they had no idea when he was going to return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: They had Kendall Graveman on the roster, who was a closer with Seattle. At some point, the players have to produce. I wouldn't have wanted Chapman on this team. For the record Graveman was responsible for losing the lead in four of those 19 games: March 31 (along with Diekman) June 11 July 9 July 23 (along with Banks) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Add to that (ugly 19 game blown lead stat) several games the we may have come back if our bullpen just kept games close and tie games. Hahn tried to bolster the end of the bullpen with guys who seriously unperformed. In many games it was frustrating that Bummer and a few others could not throw strikes when they needed, allowed walked hitters to steal bases, all resulting in crushing late inning rallies. When a team loses a lot of close games in late innings, it is hard to build any sort of momentum. Please no more lead off walks with a one run lead followed with the guy stealing second. You do that, you are almost handing the game to the other team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 5 hours ago, ptatc said: This is a hot topic for research for overuse injuries in Sports right now. Many articles being published on it. Not just for injury prevention, but also for development of athleticism overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, ptatc said: No it's not. They had a pretty high payroll to begin with and they had no idea when he was going to return. Exactly, the Sox had no idea when Hendriks would return, and he actually came back faster than expected, but the Sox wouldn’t add $3.75 million in payroll to replace their Allstar closer in a season that they were supposed to compete for the division? Just another example that shows that the Sox were never truly serious about winning, much like the bogus interest in Machado and Harper and the claims that “the money would be spent.” Edited January 11 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Exactly, the Sox had no idea when Hendriks would return, and he actually came back faster than expected, but the Sox wouldn’t add $3.75 million in payroll to replace their Allstar closer in a season that they were supposed to compete for the division? Just another example that shows that the Sox were never truly serious about winning, much like the bogus interest in Machado and Harper and the claims that “the money would be spent.” It was very clearly spent, just on the wrong veterans. Keuchel, Grandal, Lynn, Benintendi, Kimbrel/Pollock, Hendriks and finally Ohtani's new best Dodger friend and acclaimed author/TLR favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: It was very clearly spent, just on the wrong veterans. Keuchel, Grandal, Lynn, Benintendi, Kimbrel/Pollock, Hendriks and finally Ohtani's new best Dodger friend and acclaimed author/TLR favorite. yeah I would've thought going into last season that Kelly/Bummer/Graveman/Lopez should've been enough to fill in for Hendriks and that signing a dysfunctional player like Chapman probably would've just made the clubhouse a worse place to be. beyond that, he was pretty bad in 2022, lost his spot to Clay Holmes, went on the IL as a result of a bad tattoo, then was left off the playoff roster for skipping practice. don't see any reason the Sox should've signed him even in hindsight 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 11 hours ago, tray said: Ideally the back of the bullpen should have a strong Closer coupled with high leverage LH and RH pitchers as needed for the 7th and 8th. My own choice for Closer as it stands would be Kopech but I have never heard him indicate he would consider that, even for more money. Then Greg Santos (RH) and Garrett Crochet (LH) as our last line of defense in the 7th and 8th. As memory serves, in 2023, one of the worst things about the team was giving up the ghost late in games. Even when a starter got shelled early, many times our much maligned offense came back only to see leads floundered by our bullpen, walking lead-off hitters with one run leads and getting pulled after 3 batters after they could not retire the side. All-in-all, I am not sure I want to see the Sox trade Cease. In order to even be respectable Sox need at least 3 decent TOR starters (perhaps one or two Aces or stoppers) and a well constructed bullpen. Offense is a bit far away, but not that far away to grab some wins with bloops from little guys and blasts from big guys, IMO. Not sure why anyone should care about the BP right now and specifically having Crochet and Kopech in it. Also talking about keeping Cease shows that you are completely out of touch with what's happening with the Sox. There's no emphasis on winning at all. The current goal is to bring in impact young talent by trading Cease. Period. Starting pitchers are potentially worth more than relievers which is precisely why Kopech will be starting with the Sox and Crochet will be stretched out in Charlotte. Hiring Bannister and trying find a way to extract value from the Starting rotation and others so they can be traded because getting more talent into the organization is the main goal. This is a rebuild. That's what you do with rebuilds. There is zero chance they expect to compete. If by some miracle the Sox aren't more than 10 games under. 500 by the deadline that would actually be one of the best case scenarios, only because guys like Kopech, Fedde , Soroka, Moncada and Eloy might be doing well enough to be traded and continue turning over the roster and minors. Of those 5 guys I can practically guarantee 3 or 4 of them won't be here 1 year from today. No one cares about the BP right now except to have enough arms to cover the innings. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Mickey Lolich 1971 376 IP Wilbur Wood 1972 376.2 IP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 5 hours ago, nrockway said: yeah I would've thought going into last season that Kelly/Bummer/Graveman/Lopez should've been enough to fill in for Hendriks and that signing a dysfunctional player like Chapman probably would've just made the clubhouse a worse place to be. beyond that, he was pretty bad in 2022, lost his spot to Clay Holmes, went on the IL as a result of a bad tattoo, then was left off the playoff roster for skipping practice. don't see any reason the Sox should've signed him even in hindsight Chapman was obviously just one example. I’m sure there were other relievers the Sox could have signed starting in early January before the season started for a matter of a few million to attempt to help try to cover for the loss of Hendriks. Obviously, they wouldn’t have been able to replace Hendriks’ production, but a team trying to truly contend would have more than likely made a move. The Sox? Not so much. Edited January 11 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 12 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Chapman was obviously just one example. I’m sure there were other relievers the Sox could have signed starting in early January before the season started for a matter of a few million to attempt to help try to cover for the loss of Hendriks. Obviously, they wouldn’t have been able to replace Hendriks’ production, but a team trying to truly contend would have more than likely made a move. The Sox? Not so much. like who? some options would've been Andrew Chafin (negative WAR) Michael Fulmer (0.2 WAR) Chad Green (negative WAR) Luke Weaver (negative WAR) Will Smith (probably the best of the bunch but still posted a 4.40 ERA and 0.3 WAR) then the rest of the relief pitchers who were still available pretty much signed minor league deals. Chapman was by far the best of the bunch. Probably should've signed some of those pitchers to minor league deals regardless, I appreciate that Getz is doing what Hahn did not by adding AAAA quality pitching depth, but none of those guys were replacing Liam's production. realistically, Santos was probably Liam's replacement. We traded for him before Liam publicly announced his cancer diagnosis, but likely after he informed the team. so it seems to me like the best decision was made out of a really terrible situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 16 minutes ago, nrockway said: like who? some options would've been Andrew Chafin (negative WAR) Michael Fulmer (0.2 WAR) Chad Green (negative WAR) Luke Weaver (negative WAR) Will Smith (probably the best of the bunch but still posted a 4.40 ERA and 0.3 WAR) then the rest of the relief pitchers who were still available pretty much signed minor league deals. Chapman was by far the best of the bunch. Probably should've signed some of those pitchers to minor league deals regardless, I appreciate that Getz is doing what Hahn did not by adding AAAA quality pitching depth, but none of those guys were replacing Liam's production. realistically, Santos was probably Liam's replacement. We traded for him before Liam publicly announced his cancer diagnosis, but likely after he informed the team. so it seems to me like the best decision was made out of a really terrible situation. I gave you an example in Chapman but I guess he wasn’t good enough. He was such a clubhouse cancer that he blew the World Series for the Cubs. Also, Santos was a complete unknown at the time. The Sox had no idea he would have a good season out of no where. Still, the point is that in a season the Sox were supposed to compete for the division, the Sox lost their Allstar closer in January and didn’t even attempt to replace him. Edited January 11 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Just now, WhiteSox2023 said: Santos was a complete unknown at the time. The Sox had no idea he would have a good season out of no where. Still, the point is that in a season the Sox were supposed to compete for the division, the Sox lost their Allstar closer in January and didn’t even attempt to replace him. Because there weren't any real good options to add. They already had a player on the roster with closing experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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