pcq Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 On 3/6/2024 at 5:59 PM, 77 Hitmen said: I'm not sure why Sox fans want the Sox to be the one "line in the sand" stand against public funding for sports stadiums. There's other stadiums that are funded by an increase in sales tax, which IMO is much worse than extending an existing 2% hotel tax that'll still be there whether the Sox build a new park or not. Well, I think I know why.....because JR is a greedy, horrible, tone-deaf owner who already played the relocation card to get a new stadium once and then helped botch the design of said stadium. And I totally agree with that sentiment. But, I'll be a Sox fan long after Jerry has left this world and I think a South Loop ballpark would be great for the franchise in a post-Reinsdorf era. IMO, I hope they make Jerry pay a significant portion of this project (since his family and shareholders will get a huge bump in franchise value if this park is built) and a deal gets done to make this happen. Oh, and I'm no fan of the McCaskeys either. They're worse than Reinsdorf IMO. At least he built his own fortune and didn't just inherit it from his Grandpa. They've arguably run the Bears worse than he's run the Sox over the last 30 years, which is no small feat. And that 2002 Solider Field deal is much worse for the taxpayers than the 1988 New Comiskey deal was. There's $200M MORE owed on Solider Field now than when the renovated stadium opened 20 years ago! I don't mind if Jerry relocates. Just leave the team here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 1 hour ago, GREEDY said: Exactly, all kinds of new construction has been partially funded by incentives. Your local Starbucks probably has. Your local crappy art museum definitely has. Your local damn Amazon warehouse is probably getting perks. Why do we want the White Sox to not get any incentives? Most reasonable people aren't saying the White Sox shouldn't get any incentives at all. It makes sense for the City and State to kick in some $$$ to fund the infrastucture and improvements to local public transit that will be needed with a new stadium. It appears that Jerry and company don't want a just a few incentives though. I haven't seen any reporting yet that JR plans to open up his checkbook at all for this new stadium and that is absolutely insane. Again, he wants to socialize all the risk, but there is no way in hell he will share any profits. JR needs to pay his fair share if he wants to get this project off the ground. It is really that simple. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/wizards-best-path-to-new-arena-in-virginia-blocked-by-lawmakers/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 1 hour ago, pcq said: I don't mind if Jerry relocates. Just leave the team here. Father time is going to make Jerry relocate away from this world at some point. Maybe even before any new ballpark in the South Loop ever opens. 1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said: Most reasonable people aren't saying the White Sox shouldn't get any incentives at all. It makes sense for the City and State to kick in some $$$ to fund the infrastucture and improvements to local public transit that will be needed with a new stadium. It appears that Jerry and company don't want a just a few incentives though. I haven't seen any reporting yet that JR plans to open up his checkbook at all for this new stadium and that is absolutely insane. Again, he wants to socialize all the risk, but there is no way in hell he will share any profits. JR needs to pay his fair share if he wants to get this project off the ground. It is really that simple. A number of Sox fans are actually saying this. They would rather the Sox move to Nashville than he gets "ONE DIME" of public money toward a new ballpark. But then again, I suppose it can be argued that they're not "most reasonable people." JR is no doubt is emboldened by the deals he got for New Comiskey and Nationals Park. This time, he won't get away without putting a big chunk of his own money toward this. There's probably some middle ground where he commits enough of his own funds to get a deal done. If he's going to refuse to pay anything, then the deal is dead IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 2 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: Father time is going to make Jerry relocate away from this world at some point. Maybe even before any new ballpark in the South Loop ever opens. A number of Sox fans are actually saying this. They would rather the Sox move to Nashville than he gets "ONE DIME" of public money toward a new ballpark. But then again, I suppose it can be argued that they're not "most reasonable people." JR is no doubt is emboldened by the deals he got for New Comiskey and Nationals Park. This time, he won't get away without putting a big chunk of his own money toward this. There's probably some middle ground where he commits enough of his own funds to get a deal done. If he's going to refuse to pay anything, then the deal is dead IMO. The people saying "not one dime" of public funding for what should be a good project are as unreasonable as the ones saying "we need $1 billion in public funding for a $1 billion stadium or the team will move to Nashville." The difference? The former of those are random folks on a message board. The latter of those is...Jerry Reinsdorf. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 48 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The people saying "not one dime" of public funding for what should be a good project are as unreasonable as the ones saying "we need $1 billion in public funding for a $1 billion stadium or the team will move to Nashville." The difference? The former of those are random folks on a message board. The latter of those is...Jerry Reinsdorf. Why have Related and JR failed to tell us how we ALL will benefit from this, like they are saying we will? Why is giving filthy rich people billions of public dollars so they can be richer , while ever doing half of that for poor people a no no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Why have Related and JR failed to tell us how we ALL will benefit from this, like they are saying we will? Why is giving filthy rich people billions of public dollars so they can be richer , while ever doing half of that for poor people a no no? Because Jerry Reinsdorf is a classic 80s billionaire. He thinks he can bully the government into giving him exactly what he wants, that was how he acted when he went to Springfield. He'd prepped his threats with his meetings in Nashville, he'd prepped his interview with Crains where he said "The team would move and it would totally not be my fault", he expected the government to cower before him. It worked last time, why wouldn't it work this time? Literally we've heard both the governor and at least one representative say "we need to make sure this is a good deal for taxpayers", one of them quoted in here said that they wanted to see the detailed analysis of how this will work out for taxpayers using conservative numbers - Reinsdorf could have had that prepared! Hell I have been sitting here since this proposal came out asking for the same thing, that's what I need to sell this idea! The fact that he didn't have it was some combination of laziness, arrogance, and misunderstanding his audience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Because Jerry Reinsdorf is a classic 80s billionaire. He thinks he can bully the government into giving him exactly what he wants, that was how he acted when he went to Springfield. He'd prepped his threats with his meetings in Nashville, he'd prepped his interview with Crains where he said "The team would move and it would totally not be my fault", he expected the government to cower before him. It worked last time, why wouldn't it work this time? Literally we've heard both the governor and at least one representative say "we need to make sure this is a good deal for taxpayers", one of them quoted in here said that they wanted to see the detailed analysis of how this will work out for taxpayers using conservative numbers - Reinsdorf could have had that prepared! Hell I have been sitting here since this proposal came out asking for the same thing, that's what I need to sell this idea! The fact that he didn't have it was some combination of laziness, arrogance, and misunderstanding his audience. It s because it's all BS. All of their projections are like Rick Hahn's team projections where nobody ever gets hurt and 26 players always put up career years. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 Just now, Dick Allen said: It s because it's all BS. All of their projections are like Rick Hahn's team projections where nobody ever gets hurt and 26 players always put up career years. Math can be done correctly and accurately if one wants to do math correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: Math can be done correctly and accurately if one wants to do math correctly. No math exists which can credibly support a legitimate taxpayer return for the handouts Jerry demanded, let alone the billions more in taxes required to cover bond interest payments, or future demands for upgrades and renovations, or clean up another round of Jerry Reinsdorf stadium mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 7 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: No math exists which can credibly support a legitimate taxpayer return for the handouts Jerry demanded, let alone the billions more in taxes required to cover bond interest payments, or future demands for upgrades and renovations, or clean up another round of Jerry Reinsdorf stadium mistakes. No amount of math can support $1 billion for a stadium, I would agree. Several hundred million seems totally justified given the location of this property and how long it has remained undeveloped. But that, of course, is not an exact number, because Jerry Reinsdorf didn't bother doing the homework. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: No amount of math can support $1 billion for a stadium, I would agree. Several hundred million seems totally justified given the location of this property and how long it has remained undeveloped. But that, of course, is not an exact number, because Jerry Reinsdorf didn't bother doing the homework. I would like to see an tax analysis of whether people lined up Willie Wilson style to receive free gas vouchers for the same amount as Jerry's ask would generate more overall city, county and state tax revenue over the next 30-40 years vs. the stadium handout requested by Jerry. Would also like a comparison of the $1.3B handout out for dormant Lincoln Yards project vs. the actual projections for the alleged $6B development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 23 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: I would like to see an tax analysis of whether people lined up Willie Wilson style to receive free gas vouchers for the same amount as Jerry's ask would generate more overall city, county and state tax revenue over the next 30-40 years vs. the stadium handout requested by Jerry. Would also like a comparison of the $1.3B handout out for dormant Lincoln Yards project vs. the actual projections for the alleged $6B development. If I understand Tax Increment Financing, the idea is that over time a lot of that $1.3 billion would come from the taxes that would be generated by that property being developed - that they’re pumped back into the site this way. While that does limit the city’s short term benefits from the construction on this site - if construction hasn’t happened yet, then very little tax money should have flowed to the site. There are ways to screw that up by making the rules too lenient - Foxconn got $300 million for hitting 600 workers in Wisconsin (the state spent $500k per 1 year job creation), but it’s also hard to be as terrible as that Wisconsonian governor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 53 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If I understand Tax Increment Financing, the idea is that over time a lot of that $1.3 billion would come from the taxes that would be generated by that property being developed - that they’re pumped back into the site this way. While that does limit the city’s short term benefits from the construction on this site - if construction hasn’t happened yet, then very little tax money should have flowed to the site. There are ways to screw that up by making the rules too lenient - Foxconn got $300 million for hitting 600 workers in Wisconsin (the state spent $500k per 1 year job creation), but it’s also hard to be as terrible as that Wisconsonian governor. The key is what tax revenue is sequestered for the stadium (current TIF balance, hotel, property and sales taxes are sequestered to pay of bonds and interest and or to remain in the TIF for stadium improvements or the next stadium(s). Not pleased with any of these deals, including the Foxconn deal you mentioned, Pritzker's $536M handout to yet another Chinese company or dozens of other examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 The Related development 78 thing has been churning about since Rahm was Mayor and was set to go 4-5 years ago with a 10-20 year development window. It's worth reading some articles about that site and some of the comments made by readers. This isn't the first proposal pitched by 78 with their hand held out for Billions in tax payer backed as well as private financing. Here is one, but there are many others if you Google for them. https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/10/19/16503028/the-78-development-discovery-partners-institute 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 14 minutes ago, tray said: The Related development 78 thing has been churning about since Rahm was Mayor and was set to go 4-5 years ago with a 10-20 year development window. It's worth reading some articles about that site and some of the comments made by readers. This isn't the first proposal pitched by 78 with their hand held out for Billions in tax payer backed as well as private financing. Here is one, but there are many others if you Google for them. https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/10/19/16503028/the-78-development-discovery-partners-institute Lumping “public and private financing” together as though those are equally controversial is certainly a thing someone could do. Well maybe. Actually…no, that’s not a thing anyone can do? That like makes Reinsdorf look honest in comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 (edited) 46 minutes ago, tray said: The Related development 78 thing has been churning about since Rahm was Mayor and was set to go 4-5 years ago with a 10-20 year development window. It's worth reading some articles about that site and some of the comments made by readers. This isn't the first proposal pitched by 78 with their hand held out for Billions in tax payer backed as well as private financing. Here is one, but there are many others if you Google for them. https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/10/19/16503028/the-78-development-discovery-partners-institute What, if anything, is built as of today for either this or the Lincoln Yards project? Your link from pre-COVID 2020 said Phase One including “3 million square feet of buildings and includes a mix of apartments, student housing, and commercial space.” was scheduled to be here by 2024. Barely anything has been built at Lincoln Yards, and nothing has started with with this government funded project. What is the demand exists for either development despite over $2B in committed taxpayer money in 2024? Are they really “breaking ground” in 2024 as the updated two and a half years later updated article stated? Is there any private investment demand beyond this government funded slice of donated 78 land? Or like Lincoln Yards is the 78 demand similar to what Harry Caray said back in the day “what the little boy shot at”. I still can’t believe the Reinsdorf clowns are pitching office buildings. There is little to no interest in the capital markets to finance office building construction. You can literally buy relatively new (built in the 2000s) office space for $9.27 per square foot. Or you can rent any of the record vacant current Chicago space for a deep discount. Edited March 9 by South Side Hit Men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Don't get me wrong, I think it would be really cool if the Sox got a stadium in the 78, but I just think that no public money should go to it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 On 3/4/2024 at 3:31 PM, Sleepy Harold said: Neither of them is great. Perhaps grate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 On 3/1/2024 at 1:19 PM, WBWSF said: This South Loop stadium talk has died down in the media. I wonder whats going on behind the scene. At least 9,999,999 posts until Comiskey III is built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 1 hour ago, pcq said: At least 9,999,999 posts until Comiskey III is built. This question is legit. Longest thread in Soxtalk history will be: Fire Chris Getz Building in the south loop Dylan Cease trade concepts 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaff Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 2 things that are going to happen: - The Sox will have a new stadium at the 78. - The Bears will have a new dome stadium. Now how it happens I can't tell you, but both will get done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBWSF Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 21 minutes ago, Falstaff said: 2 things that are going to happen: - The Sox will have a new stadium at the 78. - The Bears will have a new dome stadium. Now how it happens I can't tell you, but both will get done. I hope you're right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 https://www.yahoo.com/sports/ranking-mlbs-stadiums-1-30-122318450.html GRF 28th 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringfieldFan Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 19 hours ago, baseball_gal_aly said: Don't get me wrong, I think it would be really cool if the Sox got a stadium in the 78, but I just think that no public money should go to it. I don’t think we (the taxpayers) should just give JR a stadium, but should we expect him to just give one to us? Where’s equilibrium? Maybe we should pony up escalated ticket prices? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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