Colson Montgomery to AZ Complex

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Another unaddressed question is why he struggles so much with fastballs up (and inside) in the zone but can murder the majority of low stuff?

Just a notorious trait of most LHB'ers?

Too selective, behind in counts the majority of at-bats.  Lots of called strikes looking, maybe guessing too much?  Obviously trying to impress scouts by showing off power instead of taking more balls to the opposite field.. thus pulling off a lot of pitches or swinging through anything on the outside or high zone of the plate.

 

But Montgomery's approach has changed in the past two years, when he has become much more focused on launching balls in the air to his pull side, and his swing decisions regressed last season as his chase rate jumped to 30 percent from 17 percent in 2023. He still has 30-homer pop and draws his share of walks, but he's a career .253 hitter through his first four years as a pro.

Yeah, I thought the book on him early on was a SS with a ceiling of 15+ HRs. Maybe his agency is working with him to provide more power to increase his value. 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, none of that is happening, here. You like the word "deflection". Can you tell me what you feel is being deflected from?

Do you not feel it's "acceptable" for players to seek outside help in their game? You seem to be arguing different things, here. 

But then you have the White Sox taking all the credit when guys like Crochet or Fedde that had lots of outside assistance succeed...or succeed largely despite the organization, as was the case with Burger's development largely on his own and with the help of Sheets and even his own wife on the psychologcal/drive mental resiliency side of the game.

Edited April 30 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, I thought the book on him early on was a SS with a ceiling of 15+ HRs. Maybe his agency is working with him to provide more power to increase his value. 

Except that's not a Corey Seager trait...more like Baldwin's uppermost home run expectation at the big league level, 12-15ish.

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But then you have the White Sox taking all the credit when guys like Crochet or Fedde that had lots of outside assistance succeed...or succeed largely despite the organization, as was the case with Burger's development largely on his own and with the help of Sheets.

You seem to forget the part of the discussions where somebody claims that the White Sox had zero claim on the development of their own players because the player went to an outside source, even though the team then worked with that player to implement suggested changes. I'm not sure where anybody has said they get "all" the credit. 

This is all a pretty silly debate. Clearly, the team works with a player, and if that player succeeds and is promoted to the bigs, where they enjoy some success, that's a win for the organization. 

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except that's not a Corey Seager trait...more like Baldwin's uppermost home run expectation at the big league level, 12-15ish.

I don't know why you replied to my comment with this. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I don't know why you replied to my comment with this. 

When he rose so high in the scouting rankings, three years ago...it was all based on size frame projection...the expectation of scouts was almost always a 20-30 homer hitter and output in the teens was never mentioned.  The major concern was outgrowing SS.

Even articles this week are calling him a 30 homer guy still.

That's kind of like Brian Anderson was Torii Hunter-like if he could just make enough hard contact.

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But then you have the White Sox taking all the credit when guys like Crochet or Fedde that had lots of outside assistance succeed...or succeed largely despite the organization, as was the case with Burger's development largely on his own and with the help of Sheets and even his own wife on the psychologcal/drive mental resiliency side of the game.

^ This part.  I will be honest, if I was in a situation where I thought my very future depended on an organization with as questionable of a track record in development, I would probably seek outside council as well.  It's just wild to then see the outside people reflexively blamed (par for the course), in this case, as if the Sox have some crazy track record here where we shouldn't be wondering what the Sox did to break him first.

To be fully transparent, in Colson's case specifically, I wonder more about the back injury jacking up his progress than I do any of the the Dev stuff.  If he can't swing like he wants to, or he is afraid to swing like he used, or he is being told to swing differently to save his back, those are all really big red flags  that could easily derail a guy like this.

[southsider2k5]

27 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, I thought the book on him early on was a SS with a ceiling of 15+ HRs. Maybe his agency is working with him to provide more power to increase his value. 

By the way, this, it what deflection looks like.  Without absolutely any evidence or any information to suggest this, suggesting blame on his team here is just wild.  We don't that this actually happened, or even if it did whose idea that it is, but here you are making up something to blame somebody else for an imaginary problem.

 

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

When he rose so high in the scouting rankings, three years ago...it was all based on size frame projection...the expectation of scouts was almost always a 20-30 homer hitter and output in the teens was never mentioned.  The major concern was outgrowing SS.

Even articles this week are calling him a 30 homer guy still.

That's kind of like Brian Anderson was Torii Hunter-like if he could just make enough hard contact.

Yeah, I looked and found he had high power grades before the draft. 

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

^ This part.  I will be honest, if I was in a situation where I thought my very future depended on an organization with as questionable of a track record in development, I would probably seek outside council as well.  It's just wild to then see the outside people reflexively blamed (par for the course), in this case, as if the Sox have some crazy track record here where we shouldn't be wondering what the Sox did to break him first.

To be fully transparent, in Colson's case specifically, I wonder more about the back injury jacking up his progress than I do any of the the Dev stuff.  If he can't swing like he wants to, or he is afraid to swing like he used, or he is being told to swing differently to save his back, those are all really big red flags  that could easily derail a guy like this.

It doesn't say much when Jacob Amaya is right now a better baseball player than a guy the organization has been touting and we have anxiously awaiting for a couple of lean years.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

By the way, this, it what deflection looks like.  Without absolutely any evidence or any information to suggest this, suggesting blame on his team here is just wild.  We don't that this actually happened, or even if it did whose idea that it is, but here you are making up something to blame somebody else for an imaginary problem.

 

So if Colson Montgomery's hitting issues are an imaginary problem, who am I deflecting blame from? LOL. 

The word "maybe" was in there. I didn't blame anybody for anything. It's a comment board. You never seem this worried about people assigning the worst motivations to JR, Getz or the Sox organization for any roster move, or public statement. 

Again, you'd have to clue me in on what exactly I'm deflecting blame from. That part made no sense. 

[TaylorStSox]

Does anybody really need to be blamed for the 22nd pick in the draft struggling in AAA? It's not like Montgomery was can't miss. There were already some polarized opinions about him. The number 1 pick in that draft has accumulated -2.1 WAR so far. 

2. -1.8 WAR

3. Still in AAA

4. 2.5 WAR. .226 lifetime BA and he's 2 years older than Montgomery.

5. -.02 WAR. Back in AAA.

6. A+.

The Sox suck at development, but nobody needs to be blamed for Montgomery's struggles. Baseball is hard.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So if Colson Montgomery's hitting issues are an imaginary problem, who am I deflecting blame from? LOL. 

The word "maybe" was in there. I didn't blame anybody for anything. It's a comment board. You never seem this worried about people assigning the worst motivations to JR, Getz or the Sox organization for any roster move, or public statement. 

Again, you'd have to clue me in on what exactly I'm deflecting blame from. That part made no sense. 

Not his hitting problems, but somehow that his agency ruined him by secretly teaching him how to hit for more power, in apparent defiance of what the poor Sox Dev people were teaching him, so that it isn't the Sox fault he failed, but those pesky outside people.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Not his hitting problems, but somehow that his agency ruined him by secretly teaching him how to hit for more power, in apparent defiance of what the poor Sox Dev people were teaching him, so that it isn't the Sox fault he failed, but those pesky outside people.

I didn't say they ruined him. You seem to be throwing up a smoke screen here to deflect from something. Here's what I said:

Quote

Every FO answer about C. Monty mentions working with his agency coaching team. I wonder how much that's causing a mix-up of messaging. 

Mix-up of messaging vs. "ruined". Can you tell me why this bothers you? I'm guessing that I'm getting close to something you know to be true, and it worries you. Please explain. 

[WhiteSox2023]

19 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So if Colson Montgomery's hitting issues are an imaginary problem, who am I deflecting blame from? LOL. 

The word "maybe" was in there. I didn't blame anybody for anything. It's a comment board. You never seem this worried about people assigning the worst motivations to JR, Getz or the Sox organization for any roster move, or public statement. 

Again, you'd have to clue me in on what exactly I'm deflecting blame from. That part made no sense. 

You made up a hypothetical story about how Colson is working with his own coach(es) to hit for more power, to obviously deflect blame away from the Sox minor league development staff for Colson’s hitting woes.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I didn't say they ruined him. You seem to be throwing up a smoke screen here to deflect from something. Here's what I said:

Mix-up of messaging vs. "ruined". Can you tell me why this bothers you? I'm guessing that I'm getting close to something you know to be true, and it worries you. Please explain. 

You keep reflexively literally making up stuff, and you don't see that as a problem.  Yes, that bothers me.

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You made up a hypothetical story about how Colson is working with his own coach(es) to hit for more power, to obviously deflect blame away from the Sox minor league development staff for Colson’s hitting woes.

It's not hypothetical that every time C. Monty is mentioned, the team's always meeting with his agency coaches to plot out a course of action. I've never heard that brought up as much as it is with him. I have no idea what I'm supposed to be "deflecting" from. Can you tell me how the Sox staff is to "blame" for Monty's hitting woes? Do you have knowledge of them confusing him or making drastic changes? His agency and agency coaches seem to approve what the White Sox are doing, so I'm unsure what "blame" the Sox staff deserves. 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You keep reflexively literally making up stuff, and you don't see that as a problem.  Yes, that bothers me.

I never hear about the White Sox running things by Colas' agency, or by Schultz's personal coaches, just Montgomery. That's not made up. Because it's not the first time I hear so much about his personal coaches being in on meetings with the White Sox, I'm just wondering if that's complicating things. I'm not making up that I'm wondering if that's complicating communication. 

I think that's a real question. Not made up. 

Can you give me any other examples of how every time a prospect is mentioned, meetings with their personal coaching team are also part of the story? I can't think of any. The only time I remember even the agent being involved in a prospect's timeline or focus is when Scott Boras commented on the Sox' treatment of Carlos Rodon in light of the Cubs playing service time games with Kris Bryant (both Boras clients). 

Edited April 30 by WestEddy

[greg775]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

But Montgomery's approach has changed in the past two years, when he has become much more focused on launching balls in the air to his pull side, and his swing decisions regressed last season as his chase rate jumped to 30 percent from 17 percent in 2023. He still has 30-homer pop and draws his share of walks, but he's a career .253 hitter through his first four years as a pro.

Young kids with great ability in 2-3 sports should not pick baseball. For hitters, the lift and pull b.s. ruins them. The old days being able to hit line shots to all fields was way good enough. Not now. Lift and pull baby and if you whiff it's OK. Pitching? We all know what happens to pitchers now. 1-900-callthesurgeonnow.

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You made up a hypothetical story about how Colson is working with his own coach(es) to hit for more power, to obviously deflect blame away from the Sox minor league development staff for Colson’s hitting woes.

Because a 15 Homer SS at that size is probably a 725-750 ops hitter rather than 800+.

Then that offensive value with an at best mixed and probably below average defensive results at the big league level isn't much to get excited about.

Seager's a star because of the homers, above average defense despite his size AND the ability to run very well at that height as well.  (Same with Tatis, de la Cruz and ONeil Cruz. EV EV EV.)

Five tools...or st least 4 1/2.

Colson doesn't really have any at the moment...just occasional power. Above average athleticism but not exactly astounding compared to peers and then back issues sapping at least something away from max production and confidence, which messes even more with your head as you try to compensate by guess hitting and overswinging.

Edited April 30 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I never hear about the White Sox running things by Colas' agency, or by Schultz's personal coaches, just Montgomery. That's not made up. Because it's not the first time I hear so much about his personal coaches being in on meetings with the White Sox, I'm just wondering if that's complicating things. I'm not making up that I'm wondering if that's complicating communication. 

I think that's a real question. Not made up. 

Can you give me any other examples of how every time a prospect is mentioned, meetings with their personal coaching team are also part of the story? I can't think of any. The only time I remember even the agent being involved in a prospect's timeline or focus is when Scott Boras commented on the Sox' treatment of Carlos Rodon in light of the Cubs playing service time games with Kris Bryant (both Boras clients). 

You almost got there.  

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Young kids with great ability in 2-3 sports should not pick baseball. For hitters, the lift and pull b.s. ruins them. The old days being able to hit line shots to all fields was way good enough. Not now. Lift and pull baby and if you whiff it's OK. Pitching? We all know what happens to pitchers now. 1-900-callthesurgeonnow.

Greg Greg Greg highest career longevity, safety, salary potential and guaranteed contracts.  Competition more from intl players than domestic like NFL. More opportunities due to more roster spots than NBA.

[WhiteSox2023]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Because a 15 Homer SS at that size is probably a 725-750 ops hitter rather than 800+.

Then that offensive value with an at best mixed and probably below average defensive results at the big league level isn't much to get excited about.

Seager's a star because of the homers, above average defense despite his size AND the ability to run very well at that height as well.  (Same with Tatis, de la Cruz and ONeil Cruz. EV EV EV.)

Five tools...or st least 4 1/2.

Colson doesn't really have any at the moment...just occasional power. Above average athleticism but out adtounding and then back issues sapping at least something away from max production and confudence., which messed even more with your head as you true to compensate by guess hitting and overswinging.

You know what isn’t worth anything?  Not making the majors because you fucked up your 15 homer swing trying to be a 25+ homer player.  You are trying to compare a Sox prospect to a Dodgers developed star player, which is pretty much ludicrous as history should’ve already told you.

Edited April 30 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You almost got there.  

So you're saying that teams always coordinate their development plan for any particular player with their agency and agency coaches, but the Sox keep dropping that into the media to make an issue of that? 

If that's the case, I don't see why you jumped on me for previously saying that it's normal for players to seek outside input to improve their game. That would seem like you agree with me on that. 

[Texsox]

I couldn't read them all. Is this close?

Fans "Hey White Sox, you've messed up every player's development over the past ten years"

Team "Whoa, not this one. He messed himself up with outside coaches."

If I was a pro athlete in today's game. I'd use some of the $millions to assemble the best private training and coaching team I could. The way players get traded, it just makes sense.