The Official Deja-Voodoo Torture-Sox thread

[macsandz]

It's an annual May tradition:

 

Consecutive inter-divisional series give-away games that result in free fall into Division irrelevance? CHECK.

 

Obvious qualified closer candidate that is more than capable but remains unused until later in the season when he proves to be the best choice all along? CHECK.

 

Inability to execute basic fundamental baseball resulting in opponent momentum and shattered Sox player's confidence? CHECK.

 

Late-inning pressure Matt Thornton choke-job? CHECK.

[Goober]

I believe it's spelled 'cheque'

[knightni]

I believe it's spelled 'cheque'

Only if you get paid for it.

[caulfield12]

Only for Dominique Strauss-Kahn or Sarkozy/

[Dick Allen]

It's an annual May tradition:

 

Consecutive inter-divisional series give-away games that result in free fall into Division irrelevance? CHECK.

 

Obvious qualified closer candidate that is more than capable but remains unused until later in the season when he proves to be the best choice all along? CHECK.

 

Inability to execute basic fundamental baseball resulting in opponent momentum and shattered Sox player's confidence? CHECK.

 

Late-inning pressure Matt Thornton choke-job? CHECK.

2 of the 3 hits off Thornton were of the very cheap variety. He was way closer to unlucky last night than bad.

[caulfield12]

2 of the 3 hits off Thornton were of the very cheap variety. He was way closer to unlucky last night than bad.

 

 

But that's exactly what you say every time he falls apart in those situations.

 

It's not just bad luck, it's about having a limited arsenal of pitches and not getting behind in counts.

 

Chunk fastball after fastball over the plate against major league hitters, they'll make contact eventually.

[Dick Allen]

But that's exactly what you say every time he falls apart in those situations.

 

It's not just bad luck, it's about having a limited arsenal of pitches and not getting behind in counts.

 

Chunk fastball after fastball over the plate against major league hitters, they'll make contact eventually.

Blame the pitching coach.

[Kyyle23]

Blame the pitching coach.

 

Dick, Caulfield, could you play this game elsewhere? Coop and Walker all have their positives and negatives, Walker moved on and it was best for both parties. Coop has his failures as well

 

 

Thornton has been hittable all season long, last night was no different. I blame him fully for serving up that pitch that Duncan drilled past Fukudome

[MEANS]

add giving back runs as soon as we score-CHECK

[southsider2k5]

It's an annual May tradition:

 

Consecutive inter-divisional series give-away games that result in free fall into Division irrelevance? CHECK.

 

Obvious qualified closer candidate that is more than capable but remains unused until later in the season when he proves to be the best choice all along? CHECK.

 

Inability to execute basic fundamental baseball resulting in opponent momentum and shattered Sox player's confidence? CHECK.

 

Late-inning pressure Matt Thornton choke-job? CHECK.

 

And of course, the screaming title, drama queen, jump off of the Skyway Bridge thread reaction. CHECK.

[The Ginger Kid]

They've lost 4 of the last 5 and seriously could've just as easily won 4 of those 5. I'm just as pissed as anyone, but the reality is that they are competing. Even with Thornton's predictable mental-midget wetting of the bed moment, they still almost came back again. How close was that TFlow shot to being fair?

 

I'm not saying their luck will change. Just wish the could make some sort of move to spark the lineup.

[Dick Allen]

They've lost 4 of the last 5 and seriously could've just as easily won 4 of those 5. I'm just as pissed as anyone, but the reality is that they are competing. Even with Thornton's predictable mental-midget wetting of the bed moment, they still almost came back again. How close was that TFlow shot to being fair?

 

I'm not saying their luck will change. Just wish the could make some sort of move to spark the lineup.

They do have to start scoring some more runs. Hawk going on and on about Stults' 5th inning yesterday was ridiculous. There's a reason a 32 year old guy is pitching in AAA. You can't expect him to throw a shutout.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

They've lost 4 of the last 5 and seriously could've just as easily won 4 of those 5. I'm just as pissed as anyone, but the reality is that they are competing. Even with Thornton's predictable mental-midget wetting of the bed moment, they still almost came back again. How close was that TFlow shot to being fair?

 

I'm not saying their luck will change. Just wish the could make some sort of move to spark the lineup.

 

We knew going into this season that there were going to be frustrating moments. This is a very young team in a lot of places.

 

[Harry Chappas]

And of course, the screaming title, drama queen, jump off of the Skyway Bridge thread reaction. CHECK.

 

It is like clockwork though. The one thing I will say, this team gives themselves chances in the 9th. It would be better if there were actual bench players hat could play.

 

 

[TitoMB345]

It is like clockwork though. The one thing I will say, this team gives themselves chances in the 9th. It would be better if there were actual bench players hat could play.

This. Just give me some competent hitters on the bench so I don't have to see Lillibridge/Morel/Beckham/Alexei make an out to end a rally late in a game!

[elrockinMT]

But that's exactly what you say every time he falls apart in those situations.

 

It's not just bad luck, it's about having a limited arsenal of pitches and not getting behind in counts.

 

Chunk fastball after fastball over the plate against major league hitters, they'll make contact eventually.

 

 

It was a combo of events and not Thornton choking. However, a loss is a loss is a loss and you can say that again. There were positives out of it though. Two young hurlers pitched real well. Now my question is where was Chris Sale? Oh yeah he is the new closer

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

My biggest pet peeve is when this team wastes advantages that that were unexpected- be it the performance of an individual you weren't expecting much from (or exceptional performance as in Konerko's case), or the misfortune of other teams in the division (injuries, down years. etc.).

Last year Humber and Sale stood out for me. Brent Lilliflower forgot who the hell he was. Pierre got hot and tried to make amends for his early season clownsmanship. Flowers stepped in and hit the ball when Pierzynski went down. No one in the AL Central wanted to win the division. Cleveland spent significant time in 1st place- to the point that they probably fooled themselves into thinking they were for real and got Ubaldo Jimenez. The Twins had a down year- Mauer/Morneau/Nathan spent significant time either being hurt or forgetting how to hit or throw baseballs.

Rios, Dunn and Beckham worked together to negate all of that. Peavy continued to make great train robberies of the early 1900's look like stealing from the take a penny leave a penny at a gas station. Danks lost something to the tune of 9 straight decisions early on(?).

 

As luck would have it, this year Dunn, Rios, and Peavy are at the other end of things, and Detroit still hasn't clinched the division like they were supposed to by this point.

[fathom]

This. Just give me some competent hitters on the bench so I don't have to see Lillibridge/Morel/Beckham/Alexei make an out to end a rally late in a game!

 

Kenny made a huge mistake in not getting a competent, veteran back-up 3rd baseman heading into the year. With Alexei's track record of slumping early and Morel struggling so much last year, having Escobar as the back-up option was a very bad decision. I said this the other day, but Blake DeWitt would be a much better fit on this roster than Escobar is.

Edited May 8, 2012 by fathom

[Greg Hibbard]

I've been mostly quiet until now, because I've favored a wait and see attitude. When they were 10-6, I didn't quite believe they were that good or lucky. Similarly, during this 3-11 stretch, I certainly don't believe they're this bad or unlucky. At this point, I don't think they can compete as-is, at least not particularly effectively, beyond a lucky win of the division and a very early exit in the playoffs. Maybe that was good enough for me in 2000, but I'm certainly not interested in that now.

 

This is an 79-90 win team, just like the last umpteen teams have been, outside of 2007 and 2005. Williams believes that putting yourself in a position to win 80 games and then getting some breaks is good enough. I guess so, if you are getting some off the chart WARs.

 

It struck me last night how fundamentally unsound Williams' "retool" strategy has been, at the core. It has relied on static parts producing at predicted results, paired with high-variance acquisitions to produce at or near the top of their game. It's a brutally flawed strategy, because it undermines some of the fundamentals of player development. In layman's terms, a lot of dudes in baseball just don't particularly pan out, which is why your Gordon Beckhams, your Brent Morels, your Dayan Viciedos are paired with a s***load of other prospects and brought along in tandem. This is why you bottom out at 95-100 wins for a couple of seasons. You trade talent away, hoard draft picks. and 3 years down the line you know who the the 2-3 diamonds are out of the 20 pieces of coal you throw in your pan. They are still cheap, so you can go out and spend money to get the FA you need to pair with your developed talent. You break the bank for two seasons and put together your attack run. You have a 2 year window, then you break it all down again. Why is this so hard for Kenny to realize?

 

2006-2012 was a series of moves designed to work IF everything fell into place. It's a bulls*** strategy, because it was based on the results of a lucky season. If Williams were a poker player, he'd play A2 suited because THAT was the hand that won him the $2000 tournament, not because it was a sound play to begin with, all things considered. Do I think it was a brilliant season? Yes. Do I commend Williams for his strategy? To a point, yes. We also got no less than 8 career years in 2005, and the playoffs of a lifetime - that still could have brutally swung the other way in the ALCS. Luckily, it didn't. Unluckily, Williams believed his own hype - that he could get career years out of "his guys" like getting water from a well. Ladies and Gents, I give you exhibit A - Scott Linebrink.

 

We need to evaluate Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham and either cast them off as dead weight or give them the tools they need to succeed. We need to understand who Dayan Viciedo and Alejandro De Aza are, and give them the tools they need to succeed or continue to succeed at the major league level. We need to stop f***ing with Chris Sale. We need to fix John Danks. We need to trade everyone who resembles a closer and probably Jake Peavy. Most importantly, we need to stop looking at wins and losses this season, because it is the cancer that prevents us from any sustained long term success. It's one thing to act like the Yankees and go "all in" every year, it's another to half-ass your way to being "competitive" with a lackluster bottom half of the lineup.

[TitoMB345]

Kenny made a huge mistake in not getting a competent, veteran back-up 3rd baseman heading into the year. With Alexei's track record of slumping early and Morel struggling so much last year, having Escobar as the back-up option was a very bad decision. I said this the other day, but Blake DeWitt would be a much better fit on this roster than Escobar is.

As I don't have much time to follow prospects, can you tell me a bit about DeWitt?

[TitoMB345]

I've been mostly quiet until now, because I've favored a wait and see attitude. When they were 10-6, I didn't quite believe they were that good or lucky. Similarly, during this 3-11 stretch, I certainly don't believe they're this bad or unlucky. At this point, I don't think they can compete as-is, at least not particularly effectively, beyond a lucky win of the division and a very early exit in the playoffs. Maybe that was good enough for me in 2000, but I'm certainly not interested in that now.

 

This is an 79-90 win team, just like the last umpteen teams have been, outside of 2007 and 2005. Williams believes that putting yourself in a position to win 80 games and then getting some breaks is good enough. I guess so, if you are getting some off the chart WARs.

 

It struck me last night how fundamentally unsound Williams' "retool" strategy has been, at the core. It has relied on static parts producing at predicted results, paired with high-variance acquisitions to produce at or near the top of their game. It's a brutally flawed strategy, because it undermines some of the fundamentals of player development. In layman's terms, a lot of dudes in baseball just don't particularly pan out, which is why your Gordon Beckhams, your Brent Morels, your Dayan Viciedos are paired with a s***load of other prospects and brought along in tandem. This is why you bottom out at 95-100 wins for a couple of seasons. You trade talent away, hoard draft picks. and 3 years down the line you know who the the 2-3 diamonds are out of the 20 pieces of coal you throw in your pan. They are still cheap, so you can go out and spend money to get the FA you need to pair with your developed talent. You break the bank for two seasons and put together your attack run. You have a 2 year window, then you break it all down again. Why is this so hard for Kenny to realize?

 

2006-2012 was a series of moves designed to work IF everything fell into place. It's a bulls*** strategy, because it was based on the results of a lucky season. If Williams were a poker player, he'd play A2 suited because THAT was the hand that won him the $2000 tournament, not because it was a sound play to begin with, all things considered. Do I think it was a brilliant season? Yes. Do I commend Williams for his strategy? To a point, yes. We also got no less than 8 career years in 2005, and the playoffs of a lifetime - that still could have brutally swung the other way in the ALCS. Luckily, it didn't. Unluckily, Williams believed his own hype - that he could get career years out of "his guys" like getting water from a well. Ladies and Gents, I give you exhibit A - Scott Linebrink.

 

We need to evaluate Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham and either cast them off as dead weight or give them the tools they need to succeed. We need to understand who Dayan Viciedo and Alejandro De Aza are, and give them the tools they need to succeed or continue to succeed at the major league level. We need to stop f***ing with Chris Sale. We need to fix John Danks. We need to trade everyone who resembles a closer and probably Jake Peavy. Most importantly, we need to stop looking at wins and losses this season, because it is the cancer that prevents us from any sustained long term success. It's one thing to act like the Yankees and go "all in" every year, it's another to half-ass your way to being "competitive" with a lackluster bottom half of the lineup.

 

TL;DR Kenny Williams' strategy of catching lightning in a bottle (ala 2005) isn't working.

 

[fathom]

I've been mostly quiet until now, because I've favored a wait and see attitude. When they were 10-6, I didn't quite believe they were that good or lucky. Similarly, during this 3-11 stretch, I certainly don't believe they're this bad or unlucky. At this point, I don't think they can compete as-is, at least not particularly effectively, beyond a lucky win of the division and a very early exit in the playoffs. Maybe that was good enough for me in 2000, but I'm certainly not interested in that now.

 

This is an 79-90 win team, just like the last umpteen teams have been, outside of 2007 and 2005. Williams believes that putting yourself in a position to win 80 games and then getting some breaks is good enough. I guess so, if you are getting some off the chart WARs.

 

It struck me last night how fundamentally unsound Williams' "retool" strategy has been, at the core. It has relied on static parts producing at predicted results, paired with high-variance acquisitions to produce at or near the top of their game. It's a brutally flawed strategy, because it undermines some of the fundamentals of player development. In layman's terms, a lot of dudes in baseball just don't particularly pan out, which is why your Gordon Beckhams, your Brent Morels, your Dayan Viciedos are paired with a s***load of other prospects and brought along in tandem. This is why you bottom out at 95-100 wins for a couple of seasons. You trade talent away, hoard draft picks. and 3 years down the line you know who the the 2-3 diamonds are out of the 20 pieces of coal you throw in your pan. They are still cheap, so you can go out and spend money to get the FA you need to pair with your developed talent. You break the bank for two seasons and put together your attack run. You have a 2 year window, then you break it all down again. Why is this so hard for Kenny to realize?

 

2006-2012 was a series of moves designed to work IF everything fell into place. It's a bulls*** strategy, because it was based on the results of a lucky season. If Williams were a poker player, he'd play A2 suited because THAT was the hand that won him the $2000 tournament, not because it was a sound play to begin with, all things considered. Do I think it was a brilliant season? Yes. Do I commend Williams for his strategy? To a point, yes. We also got no less than 8 career years in 2005, and the playoffs of a lifetime - that still could have brutally swung the other way in the ALCS. Luckily, it didn't. Unluckily, Williams believed his own hype - that he could get career years out of "his guys" like getting water from a well. Ladies and Gents, I give you exhibit A - Scott Linebrink.

 

We need to evaluate Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham and either cast them off as dead weight or give them the tools they need to succeed. We need to understand who Dayan Viciedo and Alejandro De Aza are, and give them the tools they need to succeed or continue to succeed at the major league level. We need to stop f***ing with Chris Sale. We need to fix John Danks. We need to trade everyone who resembles a closer and probably Jake Peavy. Most importantly, we need to stop looking at wins and losses this season, because it is the cancer that prevents us from any sustained long term success. It's one thing to act like the Yankees and go "all in" every year, it's another to half-ass your way to being "competitive" with a lackluster bottom half of the lineup.

 

Awesome post, and you also might want to add that 2008 saw career years from a lot of players also (Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Alexei at the very least).

[The Ginger Kid]

We need to evaluate Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham and either cast them off as dead weight or give them the tools they need to succeed. We need to understand who Dayan Viciedo and Alejandro De Aza are, and give them the tools they need to succeed or continue to succeed at the major league level.

Elaborate? What "tools"?

[Balta1701]

Kenny made a huge mistake in not getting a competent, veteran back-up 3rd baseman heading into the year. With Alexei's track record of slumping early and Morel struggling so much last year, having Escobar as the back-up option was a very bad decision. I said this the other day, but Blake DeWitt would be a much better fit on this roster than Escobar is.

I see you're back on the "We're not rebuilding" side of the fence.

[Greg Hibbard]

Elaborate? What "tools"?

 

You're probably being half-sarcastic.

 

Real talk, it might be time to totally take apart Morel's swing. Beckham appears to be coming around, to a certain extent. However, if either or both continue to tank, I don't see why sending them down and taking everything apart would be a bad thing.