And that a Tyler Flowers walkoff White Sox Winner!!!

[Jerksticks]

Kenny Williams just called and asked me to remind everybody that he's still in charge of the White Sox, and that his protege Rick Hahn is our "GM"- he specifically asked me to put GM in quotes because he feels like some people actually think the regime had changed now that titles have. He also wanted me to tell you that him and Rick Hahn have a long history of working TOGETHER on all personnel decisions. He said the idea that Rick Hahn would have made different moves in the past is absolutely retarded because, as TUC said, they were all calculated, badass and smart risks made by the entire FO.

 

He also wanted me to tell you that this retooling is his and Rick's design and that anybody who has watched white sox games understands its necessity, and of course realizes the failure and injuries of key personnel led the White Sox to this point, not some wild-man cowboy KW screw prospects boneheadedness that is beaten into the ground by misinformed fans.

 

Also, please stop with the brainless idea that KW is dumb and old-school and Rick is the new-school saber man. Please think of the front office like Voltron. The front office is a team, and the same team for over a decade.

 

Apologies for the condescension, but seriously wtf everybody, enough is enough with the hindsight s***ting on KW. Dude won a f***ing WS with moves that required the biggest balls this town has ever seen: goodbye mags and clee, just the meat and power of our order I'm gonna ship off. No big deal.

 

And he set us up for 2006 looking like an even better, more powerful monster. Those balls of his led to some of my happiest moments in life...sadly maybe, but that's another discussion

[southsider2k5]

You lost me at "retarded".

[greg775]

Then you're very unlikely to get him. If you want to play the free agent market you have to overpay what a player should reasonably be worth.

 

James Shields is going to push somewhere close to 5/$100 and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got more than that, because that is what happens on the modern day free agent market.

 

Pass on Shields.

He's already despised by Royals fans who DO NOT want him pitching any key game down the stretch. They LOL want Danny Duffy (before injury) or Vargas to pitch any one-game wild card game. The point is the fans here already hate him. You do not want to give him five years (again with the caveat I could give a s*** about Jerry's wallet).

Sox aren't going to give Shields 4-5 years.

[greg775]

Then you're very unlikely to get him. If you want to play the free agent market you have to overpay what a player should reasonably be worth.

 

James Shields is going to push somewhere close to 5/$100 and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got more than that, because that is what happens on the modern day free agent market.

 

Pass on Shields.

He's already despised by Royals fans who DO NOT want him pitching any key game down the stretch. They LOL want Danny Duffy (before injury) or Vargas to pitch any one-game wild card game. The point is the fans here already hate him. You do not want to give him five years (again with the caveat I could give a s*** about Jerry's wallet).

[southsider2k5]

The last thing any franchise needs to base their moves on, is by what the fans think of them. Fans are stupid. If they knew what they were doing, they'd be running baseball teams, instead of posting about them on the internet.

[Jake]

Tyler Flowers = John Buck

[Jake]

I'd rather pay Scherzer 7/200 than Shields 5/100

[Eminor3rd]

First, I wouldn't give Shields 5 years. 4 is the most I'd go.

 

Well we're not on the same page here. In a weak FA class where there should be several large market buyers, guys like James Shields get valued based on how many better options are ahead of them/behind them, not based on how he fairly compares on a $/WAR scale.

 

I think Shields is going to end up somewhere in the range of 5yr/$100m. I think, based on his performance trends (trading K's for contact, maintaining K/BB ratio by walking fewer and giving up more hits), he's going to be a notch worse immediately next year. That guy can still be a useful mid-rotation piece, but you can only reasonably EXPECT that for year one and maybe two of the deal. I'm not offended by the idea of him being overpaid after that, but that kind of contract can really hamper the team's ability to do other things when it's paid to a 4th or 5th starter.

 

I mean think about how we're treating John Danks at $14m. Yeah, Shields has farther to fall, but he's a lot older and has a lot more miles on that arm, and he's going to be more like $18-20m. And the signs of decline are already there.

[southsider2k5]

I'd rather pay Scherzer 7/200 than Shields 5/100

 

I would agree with this if I had to make the choice.

[Jerksticks]

You lost me at "retarded".

Alright man fair enough. You lost me in the other thread with:

 

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: teams that don't like giving out giant contracts to FA make trades." Haha please enlighten us more often!

 

We'll support eachother another day it seems.

[Dick Allen]

Tyler Flowers = John Buck

To me Flowers is Kelly Shoppock. He will put up really nice numbers one year and get about 8 major league seasons out of it.

[southsider2k5]

Alright man fair enough. You lost me in the other thread with:

 

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: teams that don't like giving out giant contracts to FA make trades." Haha please enlighten us more often!

 

We'll support eachother another day it seems.

 

Except Rick Hahn clearly stated they weren't just looking at the free agent market, and the Sox have minimal history on the free agent market, let alone for pitching.

[Dick Allen]

Interesting that Hawk said if you want to win you have to spend money the other day.

[hi8is]

Interesting that Hawk said if you want to win you have to spend money the other day.

I still think those claiming us to have 30M to add to the payroll for next year are going to see that to be a big underestimate.

[southsider2k5]

Interesting that Hawk said if you want to win you have to spend money the other day.

 

Since Hawk as GM worked so well the first time...

[The Ultimate Champion]

Well we're not on the same page here. In a weak FA class where there should be several large market buyers, guys like James Shields get valued based on how many better options are ahead of them/behind them, not based on how he fairly compares on a $/WAR scale.

 

I think Shields is going to end up somewhere in the range of 5yr/$100m. I think, based on his performance trends (trading K's for contact, maintaining K/BB ratio by walking fewer and giving up more hits), he's going to be a notch worse immediately next year. That guy can still be a useful mid-rotation piece, but you can only reasonably EXPECT that for year one and maybe two of the deal. I'm not offended by the idea of him being overpaid after that, but that kind of contract can really hamper the team's ability to do other things when it's paid to a 4th or 5th starter.

 

I mean think about how we're treating John Danks at $14m. Yeah, Shields has farther to fall, but he's a lot older and has a lot more miles on that arm, and he's going to be more like $18-20m. And the signs of decline are already there.

I wouldn't like that deal either.

 

As I said earlier though, I'm still on the fence re: any "big" moves as it is. I don't care about the second rounder - in fact I'd LOVE to exchange that pick for a proven player - but the players and the years.... I'm not just not sure there is a fit right now because of the number of holes on the team.

 

One thing I do think is pretty dumb though is throwing money at the McCarthy tier of pitchers (not just him specifically) because the best we can hope is that we get him on a deal that fits what we're doing now and that we can recoup a decent spect for him at the deadline. I would much, much rather concentrate on developing another SP who could potentially be a core piece than throw some run of the mill vet out there (and yes, McCarthy & that tier is very run of the mill all things considered).

 

I'm not in love with the idea of running out and making some big trade either. Now if it's Stanton or something that is different, but even there you have injury issues and the potential to lose the player to FA. You'd have to have a pretty good feeling about an extension before doing that.

 

Also definitely count me in the camp of going 5/$100M on Shields vs. 7/$200M for Scherzer, for exactly the reasons you have mentioned here. Scherzer's deal will have a huge chance of blowing up in the face of whatever team gives him that. Look at the last CC deal - the Yanks should have called his bluff and let him walk. And while Tanaka's deal looked like it could be bad later, did anyone really think this early? Looking at the Mets with Santana, the Kevin Brown deal, the Yanks with Pavano, the Zito deal in SF where he was a lefthanded Scott Carroll on Day 1, etc. there's just too much evidence to say that a 7 year deal is a bad, bad thing to do. 5 I draw the line unless it is a special situation, but I don't want to do that for Shields.

 

Shields - one last thing, I'm not disputing that he is in the early stages of his decline nor am I disputing that he will likely lose some of the physical stuff going forward. IMO he;s the type that can deal with physical regression better than others. Some athletes can't make it work anymore after they lose some of what they have physically, others however can, and Shields isn't the type that I'd look at and say "major injury risk" or "no durability/this guy can't hold up," or "this guy won't be able to record outs with lesser fastball velocity." So I think in some key ways he's safer (a whole lot safer than big fastball, big slider Scherzer by a mile) even though I've always seen Shields as a #3 who outplays his ability into a #2 type of role (very similar to the way I view Quintana). I don't really believe in #2's and #4's, just really 1's, 3's, and 5's, and Shields has never for me been a 1, just a real competitive type of 3.

 

In the end, I'm not sure where you fall on this, but I just don't know about making veteran additions. I think 2016 is more the year we should be looking at, and if we do make a money move then go big or go home, get a RHSP who is good enough to slot between Sale and Q, because if you do you might win something. Otherwise, stay away from the vets for the most part and focus on adding more youth.

[Balta1701]

I still think those claiming us to have 30M to add to the payroll for next year are going to see that to be a big underestimate.

And I think the Free Agent spending will wind up being less than that.

[2nd_city_saint787]

And I think the Free Agent spending will wind up being less than that.

 

I think a lot of that depends on what they wanna do with the bullpen.....If they wanna grab a proven closer like Robertson or Janssen and a LH guy like Miller or Thatcher then you're already looking at 15M+

[southsider2k5]

Robertson isn't escaping the Yankees.

[Balta1701]

I think a lot of that depends on what they wanna do with the bullpen.....If they wanna grab a proven closer like Robertson or Janssen and a LH guy like Miller or Thatcher then you're already looking at 15M+

I might think about it in Hahn's chair, but seriously, when is the last time the White Sox paid the full free agent price for a closer? Heck, they've traded away 2 in the last 5 years.

 

This team clearly believes as an organizational philosophy that they can come up with closers internally.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I might think about it in Hahn's chair, but seriously, when is the last time the White Sox paid the full free agent price for a closer? Heck, they've traded away 2 in the last 5 years.

 

This team clearly believes as an organizational philosophy that they can come up with closers internally.

 

When have they seemingly been void of a closer candidate? If they wanna contend I'm not sure Petricka, who I think can be a solid middle reliever, is the answer. Webb is probably the guy they had planned to fit the role but I'm not sure how they can have confidence in him after this year......Maybeeeee they throw Guerra back in that role but they haven't done that yet.

[Eminor3rd]

I wouldn't like that deal either.

 

As I said earlier though, I'm still on the fence re: any "big" moves as it is. I don't care about the second rounder - in fact I'd LOVE to exchange that pick for a proven player - but the players and the years.... I'm not just not sure there is a fit right now because of the number of holes on the team.

 

One thing I do think is pretty dumb though is throwing money at the McCarthy tier of pitchers (not just him specifically) because the best we can hope is that we get him on a deal that fits what we're doing now and that we can recoup a decent spect for him at the deadline. I would much, much rather concentrate on developing another SP who could potentially be a core piece than throw some run of the mill vet out there (and yes, McCarthy & that tier is very run of the mill all things considered).

 

I'm not in love with the idea of running out and making some big trade either. Now if it's Stanton or something that is different, but even there you have injury issues and the potential to lose the player to FA. You'd have to have a pretty good feeling about an extension before doing that.

 

Also definitely count me in the camp of going 5/$100M on Shields vs. 7/$200M for Scherzer, for exactly the reasons you have mentioned here. Scherzer's deal will have a huge chance of blowing up in the face of whatever team gives him that. Look at the last CC deal - the Yanks should have called his bluff and let him walk. And while Tanaka's deal looked like it could be bad later, did anyone really think this early? Looking at the Mets with Santana, the Kevin Brown deal, the Yanks with Pavano, the Zito deal in SF where he was a lefthanded Scott Carroll on Day 1, etc. there's just too much evidence to say that a 7 year deal is a bad, bad thing to do. 5 I draw the line unless it is a special situation, but I don't want to do that for Shields.

 

Shields - one last thing, I'm not disputing that he is in the early stages of his decline nor am I disputing that he will likely lose some of the physical stuff going forward. IMO he;s the type that can deal with physical regression better than others. Some athletes can't make it work anymore after they lose some of what they have physically, others however can, and Shields isn't the type that I'd look at and say "major injury risk" or "no durability/this guy can't hold up," or "this guy won't be able to record outs with lesser fastball velocity." So I think in some key ways he's safer (a whole lot safer than big fastball, big slider Scherzer by a mile) even though I've always seen Shields as a #3 who outplays his ability into a #2 type of role (very similar to the way I view Quintana). I don't really believe in #2's and #4's, just really 1's, 3's, and 5's, and Shields has never for me been a 1, just a real competitive type of 3.

 

In the end, I'm not sure where you fall on this, but I just don't know about making veteran additions. I think 2016 is more the year we should be looking at, and if we do make a money move then go big or go home, get a RHSP who is good enough to slot between Sale and Q, because if you do you might win something. Otherwise, stay away from the vets for the most part and focus on adding more youth.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this -- though I don't necessarily think playing in the McCarthy tier is necessarily the worst thing. I DO think that doing so is akin to virtually punting another season for development, a lot like this year, but if there are no smart splashes to make, that may be the best way to go.

[greg775]

Interesting that Hawk said if you want to win you have to spend money the other day.

I thought we were going to be more like the Yankees after we won it all in 05. I was hoping we'd always re-stock with GOOD free agents. This other way isn't going to get the Sox back into the postseason anytime soon.

[LittleHurt05]

I thought we were going to be more like the Yankees after we won it all in 05. I was hoping we'd always re-stock with GOOD free agents. This other way isn't going to get the Sox back into the postseason anytime soon.

 

If it was that easy to always re-stock with good free agents, the Yankees wouldn't be missing the playoffs again and wouldn't be on 5 years without a WS appearance. Especially since the market dictates that you must sign them to long term-deals, through their down years.

[caulfield12]

Hopefully that year is next year...?

 

 

Shoppach, Greg...