Feeky Magee Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 11:53 AM) "Great" might be pushing it and I know the projections didn't really like us, but even then a bunch of guys are hitting below their projections, some well under like Melky. Even if you were pessimistic you shouldn't have expected this kind of offensive ineptitude. The projections didn't like us because we had huge offensive holes at catcher and second base, with question marks elsewhere, horrendous defence/baserunners and huge holes at 4 and 5 in the rotation and just an okay bullpen. I wouldn't say that's anything close to great on paper. I called it as an under .500 team preseason. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 12:54 PM) I'd agree with this. We have seen a lot of unearned, earned runs this year. I'd put that more on the fact that we've assembled a team of historically poor defenders/declining players rather than bad coaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 11:38 AM) This year looked great on paper, but the crime is poor coaching right now. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! wRC+ Adam Eaton 78 C Gillaspie 76 T Flowers 54 Alexei 53 Melky 48 Sanchez 5 (yes, that's 5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 09:04 AM) Chris Sale being a god right now is the reason we can't blow it up. Wasting his prime would be a crime against baseball. 100% agree. Get Sale into the playoffs and he has a chance to carry this team. That's why Hahn needs to add more pieces to the lineup right now. With a halfway competent offense, this team can be in the Wild Card mix come September. The offense is do for a ton of positive regression, Shark should improve in the coming months, & Rodon is already a stud and continues to get better. Just need to fill a couple of the black holes in the lineup and we can compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 07:13 PM) The projections didn't like us because we had huge offensive holes at catcher and second base, with question marks elsewhere, horrendous defence/baserunners and huge holes at 4 and 5 in the rotation and just an okay bullpen. I wouldn't say that's anything close to great on paper. I called it as an under .500 team preseason. Yes but my point is that even though the projections were pretty bad and pessimistic, most of the guys are still not even hitting them. Our black holes at second and catcher have been even blacker than expected. Only Avi (and Shuck somewhat) is significantly outperforming his projections on offense. LaRoche, Beckham and Soto are right there, and then everyone else is under. Abreu, Eaton, Sanchez, Flowers, Bonifacio, Gillaspie, Ramirez, and Melky are all performing significantly under their projections from all three systems. So my point is that even if we might have looked bad on paper, we've performed significantly worse than expected on offense, even if you were pessimistic about this offense I doubt you could have expected it to be anywhere near this bad (our position players collectively have a negative WAR for crying out loud). The good news is that even with that underperformance we're only 2 games under .500. If those guys above can just hit to their bad projections then that would be a big improvement over what we've seen so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 07:21 AM) Three pitches, I think, is the ultimate requirement for consistently being able to pitch well deep into the game, because it gives you a weapon for the third time through the lineup. The other night we saw him go fastball/slider almost exclusively the first time through, start adding the change in tough spots the second time through (and honestly it didn't look real good at first), and then start to lean on the change as a wipeout the third time through (and it looked fantastic). I'm starting to wonder if there's a correlation between those "one bad inning" guys (like Edwin Jackson, John Danks, etc.) and the number of legitimate pitches they have. Maybe if you only have two good pitches, you're constantly going to be at risk for a meltdown the third time through the order. You know as well as I do that it's not just the pitches . It's the location and the difference in speed between them and how well you outfox the hitter.Not only making the hitter think about which pitch he's getting but in what location. Danks has enough pitches just not the command or the difference in speed between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 08:05 AM) You know as well as I do that it's not just the pitches . It's the location and the difference in speed between them and how well you outfox the hitter.Not only making the hitter think about which pitch he's getting but in what location. Well yeah. QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 08:05 AM) Danks has enough pitches just not the command or the difference in speed between them. I said having three good pitches, is the key. Good probably meaning average or better. Danks has a four seamer, a cutter, a change, and a curve. Of those four, only the change plays above average when he's on. The cutter is probably a 50. The curve is a "show me" pitch and the fastball is dog-s***. So yeah, one good pitch and one average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 05:13 PM) The projections didn't like us because we had huge offensive holes at catcher and second base, with question marks elsewhere, horrendous defence/baserunners and huge holes at 4 and 5 in the rotation and just an okay bullpen. I wouldn't say that's anything close to great on paper. I called it as an under .500 team preseason. I'd put that more on the fact that we've assembled a team of historically poor defenders/declining players rather than bad coaching. I don't think it was a year too early at all. Look at the parity in the league . Hovering around .500 puts you in the playoff picture. Any team 10 games over .500 at the end of the year probably makes the playoffs. The Sox now are trying to rely on having better defense to support the pitching with Beckham and Sanchez and LaRoche getting a bit more playing time at 1st. There are just certain times that a team that spends like the Sox have to show a clear effort to make major improvements and that was having a lot of room to add salary and the ability to do it without giving up a 1st round draft choice. Those situations do not come up often together. Make improvements along the way or finally be a 2nd half riser ,get in the playoffs and let the pitching carry us. It certainly wouldn't be the 1st time that's happened Edited June 11, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 It was a widely held belief by a ton of intelligent baseball people that the Sox were going to be good this year with all their signings.... It hasn't happened yet but these few people running in here like "I told you so..." It makes me laugh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 09:13 AM) It was a widely held belief by a ton of intelligent baseball people that the Sox were going to be good this year with all their signings.... It hasn't happened yet but these few people running in here like "I told you so..." It makes me laugh... For many I think the "I told you so" is more important than actually enjoying the game of baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Hell two of the baseball experts out of six on Grantland picked us to lose in the World Series to the Nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 2h2 hours ago Chris Sale is pitching his way into history for #Whitesox, making his idol, Randy Johnson, quite proud. http://usat.ly/1JHEIjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 10:30 AM) Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 2h2 hours ago Chris Sale is pitching his way into history for #Whitesox, making his idol, Randy Johnson, quite proud. http://usat.ly/1JHEIjo Awesome article, Sale truly deserves to be recognized as one of the best starters in baseball by all fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Dunt @ Jun 10, 2015 -> 09:39 AM) At this stage, I think it's fair to say Chris Sale will probably be the best pitcher the White Sox ever have. Big Ed Walsh puts him to shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 12:13 PM) Big Ed Walsh puts him to shame. Because his number isn't retired...since they didn't have numbers...people tend to forget one of the greatest pitchers of all-time pitched for the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 12:14 PM) Because his number isn't retired...since they didn't have numbers...people tend to forget one of the greatest pitchers of all-time pitched for the Sox. It is retired in a way. No one will ever go numberless again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 12:21 PM) It is retired in a way. No one will ever go numberless again. Touche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 10:30 AM) Bob Nightengale @BNightengale 2h2 hours ago Chris Sale is pitching his way into history for #Whitesox, making his idol, Randy Johnson, quite proud. http://usat.ly/1JHEIjo For those who haven't read this, there is a ton of high praise from people like Randy Johnson, Jerry DiPoto, and Don Cooper who called him the best pitcher he has everhad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 12:28 PM) For those who haven't read this, there is a ton of high praise from people like Randy Johnson, Jerry DiPoto, and Don Cooper who called him the best pitcher he has everhad. I'll be seeing the Big Unit tomorrow night at the Rush show. He is their Joe Photo. And before he really took off and was still sort of struggling with Seattle, Randy Johnson almost became a White Sox. The trade was so close, they had a uniform for him hanging in their clubhouse. Edited June 11, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 KW certainly does love to hear himself talk: Those plans changed when Williams picked up the telephone at home with Sale on the other end of the line. "He wasn't happy with me at all,'' Williams said. "He said some things that I allowed for awhile, and then I had to remind him that not only was I the GM, but I'm in shape, and I can fight. "When I got off the phone, my fiancée at the time and now wife, said, 'You let your players yell and scream like that?' "Well, I was pumped about it. It was the first sign that he had that No. 1, shutdown, mentality. "I loved it, because there was no back down in him.'' Too bad he didn't make that call to some of his other draft picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 12:51 PM) KW certainly does love to hear himself talk: Too bad he didn't make that call to some of his other draft picks. Sale called him, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Hypothetically, if Sale retired today, would his number be retired by the Sox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Mike F. @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 01:12 PM) Hypothetically, if Sale retired today, would his number be retired by the Sox? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 01:52 PM) Sale called him, not the other way around. I was using "call" liberally in order to illustrate the absurdity of claiming he knew at that moment that Sale was a stud, had off the charts makeup, what have you, etc. KW's account comes across as silly as Hawk's TWTW. So, it was at that moment that you knew he had #1 stuff? GMAFB. There's been plenty of hot heads in MLB that sucked ass. I just enjoy the hindsight bias of it and once again how KW inserts himself into the news. Whatever, the Sox are actually on an uptick, let KW have his 200 words in the USA Today. Edited June 11, 2015 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 01:17 PM) I was using "call" liberally in order to illustrate the absurdity of claiming he knew at that moment that Sale was a stud, had off the charts makeup, what have you, etc. KW's account comes across as silly as Hawk's TWTW. So, it was at that moment that you knew he had #1 stuff? GMAFB. There's been plenty of hot heads in MLB that sucked ass. I just enjoy the hindsight bias of it and once again how KW inserts himself into the news. IIRC almost exactly that was said right after the incident as well. I know it made news for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeky Magee Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 08:23 AM) I don't think it was a year too early at all. Look at the parity in the league . Hovering around .500 puts you in the playoff picture. Any team 10 games over .500 at the end of the year probably makes the playoffs. The Sox now are trying to rely on having better defense to support the pitching with Beckham and Sanchez and LaRoche getting a bit more playing time at 1st. There are just certain times that a team that spends like the Sox have to show a clear effort to make major improvements and that was having a lot of room to add salary and the ability to do it without giving up a 1st round draft choice. Those situations do not come up often together. Make improvements along the way or finally be a 2nd half riser ,get in the playoffs and let the pitching carry us. It certainly wouldn't be the 1st time that's happened It was definitely a year too early. There were too many holes in the team. Trying to scrape your way to the second wild card is not a good strategy. Build a sustainable winner. QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 11, 2015 -> 09:13 AM) It was a widely held belief by a ton of intelligent baseball people that the Sox were going to be good this year with all their signings.... It hasn't happened yet but these few people running in here like "I told you so..." It makes me laugh... Actually it was repeatedly suggested on the likes of Fangraphs that the White Sox would not have a successful season despite all their signings. And if people predicted the Sox to have a poor season amongst vast predictions of a good season, they kind of deserve to say I told you so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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