southsider2k5 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:33 PM) I also dont see what about my idea of starting over lacks patience. I mean you guys are the ones who want them to field a competitive team in 2017 not me. Literally no one has said they want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con te Giolito Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Literally no one has said they want that. No everyone wants all the Sox players to have massive breakout seasons (do not deny this, the Predict Thy Numbers threads are insane), keep all the veterans, remain watchable but still pick #1 overall in 2018 and have a big rebuild with blue chip prospects everywhere. The definition of having your cake and eating it too. I see the Sox options as (a) rebuild or (b) dont rebuild. I dont harbor this childlike (also reflected in these pathetic """insults""") expectation that the Sox, especially with this FO, can pull off 10 different things at once. Cant have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:44 PM) No everyone wants all the Sox players to have massive breakout seasons (do not deny this, the Predict Thy Numbers threads are insane), keep all the veterans, remain watchable but still pick #1 overall in 2018 and have a big rebuild with blue chip prospects everywhere. The definition of having your cake and eating it too. I see the Sox options as (a) rebuild or (b) dont rebuild. I dont harbor this childlike (also reflected in these pathetic """insults""") expectation that the Sox, especially with this FO, can pull off 10 different things at once. Cant have both. What are you talking about? We want Abreu, Frazier, et al to have good seasons so they make for good deadline deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:44 PM) No everyone wants all the Sox players to have massive breakout seasons (do not deny this, the Predict Thy Numbers threads are insane), keep all the veterans, remain watchable but still pick #1 overall in 2018 and have a big rebuild with blue chip prospects everywhere. The definition of having your cake and eating it too. I see the Sox options as (a) rebuild or (b) dont rebuild. I dont harbor this childlike (also reflected in these pathetic """insults""") expectation that the Sox, especially with this FO, can pull off 10 different things at once. Cant have both. No one wants to keep all of the veterans. Again, you are the only one saying that. What people are doing is finding a grey in your black or white world that states they don't want these players for nothing, and that they are more valuable to the rebuild as potential trade chips versus being dumped for absolutely nothing. It is also disingenuous to try to attach the predictions threads to "everyone" when not even close to everyone is making predictions. On the last thing, you mention a "childlike expectation" with the Sox, then complain about pathetic insults, which is pretty darned funny that you managed to contradict yourself quite literally in the same sentence, and be wrong all at the same time. Most of Soxtalk is who realizes that the expectation of being able to trade literally every single veteran player on this team in about half of an off season is not realistic. Some would even call that being able to "pull off 10 things at once" since there have been about 10 players having been mentioned as players that could, or should, be traded. You have quite literally advocated that the Sox have failed because they haven't been able to trade 10 players in an off season, while you are calling people "childlike" for believing exactly that... especially since you are the only one who seems to believe this already should have happened. I'd call that the very definition of having your cake and eating it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con te Giolito Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 What are you talking about? We want Abreu, Frazier, et al to have good seasons so they make for good deadline deals. If all the Sox players have big seasons they won't be a bad team and there will be no deadline selling. If anything they'll buy. This won't be the Yankees last year, not with Ken Williams around. Then you'll get all sorts of nonsense like a big Frazier extension and selling the farm for aging sluggers. I don't trust the same FO that made the Shield's trade to not overreact fo a hot month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Harold Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:54 PM) If all the Sox players have big seasons they won't be a bad team and there will be no deadline selling. If anything they'll buy. This won't be the Yankees last year, not with Ken Williams around. Then you'll get all sorts of nonsense like a big Frazier extension and selling the farm for aging sluggers. I don't trust the same FO that made the Shield's trade to not overreact fo a hot month or two. This is just getting sad now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Cut it out with the insults or I'll have to close and reopen another thread, and all who pray to the God of thread count post records will be crushed yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:54 PM) If all the Sox players have big seasons they won't be a bad team and there will be no deadline selling. If anything they'll buy. This won't be the Yankees last year, not with Ken Williams around. Then you'll get all sorts of nonsense like a big Frazier extension and selling the farm for aging sluggers. I don't trust the same FO that made the Shield's trade to not overreact fo a hot month or two. If the Sox are magically winning in 2017 then you absolutely run with it and see what happens If we are somehow in first place at the deadline then you certainly reevaluate your plans, but I doubt that will be the case. Far more likely that we are 15 games under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con te Giolito Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 No one wants to keep all of the veterans. Again, you are the only one saying that. What people are doing is finding a grey in your black or white world that states they don't want these players for nothing, and that they are more valuable to the rebuild as potential trade chips versus being dumped for absolutely nothing. It is also disingenuous to try to attach the predictions threads to "everyone" when not even close to everyone is making predictions. On the last thing, you mention a "childlike expectation" with the Sox, then complain about pathetic insults, which is pretty darned funny that you managed to contradict yourself quite literally in the same sentence, and be wrong all at the same time. Most of Soxtalk is who realizes that the expectation of being able to trade literally every single veteran player on this team in about half of an off season is not realistic. Some would even call that being able to "pull off 10 things at once" since there have been about 10 players having been mentioned as players that could, or should, be traded. You have quite literally advocated that the Sox have failed because they haven't been able to trade 10 players in an off season, while you are calling people "childlike" for believing exactly that... especially since you are the only one who seems to believe this already should have happened. I'd call that the very definition of having your cake and eating it too. I don't even need the predictions threads. If you're willing to bet that the garbage over 30's vets inundating the Sox roster will GAIN value by the deadline then you're betting on some massive performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 03:59 PM) If the Sox are magically winning in 2017 then you absolutely run with it and see what happens If we are somehow in first place at the deadline then you certainly reevaluate your plans, but I doubt that will be the case. Far more likely that we are 15 games under We go from Sale to Holland and Eaton's defense in RF to Avi's defense in RF. Whoever replaces Eaton's spot in the lineup isn't going to have as good a year as him. We have holes at C, DH, CF, basically 2B, and RF (and potentially SS if Anderson takes a step back). This team won't be better. Edited January 25, 2017 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:01 PM) I don't even need the predictions threads. If you're willing to bet that the garbage over 30's vets inundating the Sox roster will GAIN value by the deadline then you're betting on some massive performances. It's a pretty easy case that Melky/Frazier gain value at the deadline compared to right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Talk about panicking over nothing. What is this thread about anymore? f*** it, kill it bmags and do the entire board a favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:03 PM) We go from Sale to Holland and Eaton's defense in RF to Avi's defense in RF. Whoever replaces Eaton's spot in the lineup isn't going to have as good a year as him. We have holes at C, DH, CF, basically 2B, and RF (and potentially SS if Anderson takes a step back). This team won't be better. I said magically haha As the roster is constructed today, we probably still win 70 games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:01 PM) I don't even need the predictions threads. If you're willing to bet that the garbage over 30's vets inundating the Sox roster will GAIN value by the deadline then you're betting on some massive performances. Again, I don't think anyone is betting on it, or expecting it. I think the hope is that even one or two of them bounces back. Personally the discussions I have read centering on David Robertson and Todd Frazier being the most likely candidates to do that are very realistic. I also believe that pretty much everyone else who holds this opinion (seemingly almost everyone but you) correctly realizes that once these players are gone they are gone forever. They also seem to understand that there isn't a current market that is willing to give a decent return for a myriad of reasons specific to each individual player. I also think people seem to realize that all it takes is one player to have a big bounce back year to explode their value, and even if all of the rest of the players fail to do so, the return from that player would largely outweigh the return for what we could get for all of those players now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con te Giolito Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 It's a pretty easy case that Melky/Frazier gain value at the deadline compared to right now. Then the case that Quintana loses value at the deadline applies too, unless everyone is going to be just completely selective in their reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:05 PM) I said magically haha As the roster is constructed today, we probably still win 70 games I wasn't referring to your post. It was more towards the guy losing his s*** accusing us of "wanting them to win the division" or whatever hes babbling about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:01 PM) I don't even need the predictions threads. If you're willing to bet that the garbage over 30's vets inundating the Sox roster will GAIN value by the deadline then you're betting on some massive performances. Betting on mild improvements from Abreu/Frazier/Robertson isn't betting on massive performances. They don't need to be MVP-level to gain value. And if you really believe these players are garbage over 30 vets, then they currently have no value anyway and won't do much to help the team win, so holding on to them until the deadline is basically a wash anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con te Giolito Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 once these players are gone they are gone forever Oh what a day that will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:07 PM) Betting on mild improvements from Abreu/Frazier/Robertson isn't betting on massive performances. They don't need to be MVP-level to gain value. And if you really believe these players are garbage over 30 vets, then they currently have no value anyway and won't do much to help the team win, so holding on to them until the deadline is basically a wash anyway. And as of right now, there really isn't a market for Melky or Frazier. Melky makes most sense for SF, but I don't think management really likes him after 2012. Edited January 25, 2017 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 04:09 PM) And as of right now, there really isn't a market for Melky or Frazier. Melky makes most sense for SF, but I don't think management really likes him after 2012. Melky and Frazier could certainly be solid trade chips at the deadline as a rental, especially in the event of an injury Maybe Frazier is having a big season in a contract year? I could see him being an attractive bat to a contender that needs a 3B, 1B or DH Nate Jones and David Robertson could be deadline bullpen help for a contender. Every seasons you see teams looking to add quality pen arms for a stretch run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 12:39 PM) Injury history doesn't matter as much as it used to. Look at guys like Rich Hill and Brett Anderson. Depends on the injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Frazier has little value now. If he can rebound like his first half in 15, he can get someone decent or be in contention for a QO. Being a walk year, hopefully he has a big season. Edited January 26, 2017 by fathom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 02:31 PM) Can we trade you as part of the rebuild? Best post made on here today. Honestly, Conte Giolito has become such a blowhard, he's made this site difficult to read lately. The admins should really consider giving him a few week time out. It's just brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Jan 25, 2017 -> 08:39 PM) Frazier has little value now. If he can rebound like his first half in 15, he can get someone decent or be in contention for a QO. Being a walk year, hopefully he has a big season. Out of the guys who had down seasons last year, it's probably true that 1-2 of them should be expected to have solid seasons worthy enough to earn something in a trade. If we hold all of them, we also better be ready for 2-3 of them to have worse seasons and just eat the money spent on them. As long as we're ok with that as a franchise, then holding 5 guys and hoping 1-2 of them develop some value is a fair strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 26, 2017 -> 02:45 AM) Out of the guys who had down seasons last year, it's probably true that 1-2 of them should be expected to have solid seasons worthy enough to earn something in a trade. If we hold all of them, we also better be ready for 2-3 of them to have worse seasons and just eat the money spent on them. As long as we're ok with that as a franchise, then holding 5 guys and hoping 1-2 of them develop some value is a fair strategy. Miguel Gonzalez is my pick to implode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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