Giolito makes half-year list as 6th most disappointing

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I'll go with terrible. They developed a couple of players in Quintana and Sale, but it was enough to outfit a team that was 4th place when they did everything they could to compete. People bashing their scouting and development don't need to make absolute statements about how they developed "absolutely no one", they just need to note that they finished in 4th place repeatedly when they did their very best. The record of the big league squad says everything I need.

So the only option for future success was to build our entire future on the franchise actually being good at the thing that they keep saying was our biggest failure.  Now you see my confusion as to how this was a good idea.

 

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So the only option for future success was to build our entire future on the franchise actually being good at the thing that they keep saying was our biggest failure.  Now you see my confusion as to how this was a good idea.

 

But it's also the reason why they couldn't compete in 2015 or 2016, they could not get past 75 wins because their system was so weak it couldn't support more wins than that no matter what they did. So, as long as people are ok with 75 win teams, then you're right, this rebuild was a terrible idea.

[SoxAce]

8 hours ago, SoxAce said:

I blame injuries more than performance. I think Kopech gets too much criticism here from what off the field stuff he was and likely still is going through. Eloy, Dunning, Hansen, Robert, etc. injuries have really sucked for this organization and this isn't even counting the lesser guys like Puckett, McClure, etc. Adolfo might be the only bullet we've dodged and he still needs to develop defensively in the OF too. 

And of course this ages well for me.. Dammit. 

[southsider2k5]

43 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But it's also the reason why they couldn't compete in 2015 or 2016, they could not get past 75 wins because their system was so weak it couldn't support more wins than that no matter what they did. So, as long as people are ok with 75 win teams, then you're right, this rebuild was a terrible idea.

If you truly believe both things are true here, I have no idea how you can reconcile both of those ideas at the same time.

The Sox can't develop young talent, so let's balance the entire future on it, and be excited the team is doing it.

 

 

[fathom]

9 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

But between Fry, Cease, Collins, Rutherford, Basabe, Adolfo, Hamilton, Rivera, etc. it has gone as or better than planned. Win some, lose some 

If the big name guys flame out, the rebuild will almost certainly fail regardless of how the low to mid-level guys do (not saying Cease isn't high-level). Reason being almost all teams have guys like Rivera or Hamilton or Basabe.  To be a contender, you need difference makers and that's what Yoan, Eloy and Kopech need to be.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you truly believe both things are true here, I have no idea how you can reconcile both of those ideas at the same time.

The Sox can't develop young talent, so let's balance the entire future on it, and be excited the team is doing it.

 

 

The Sox have to figure out how to develop young talent otherwise they will fail forever. Having some could be a good start.

[Flash Tizzle]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The Sox have to figure out how to develop young talent otherwise they will fail forever. Having some could be a good start.

If they fail to develop the young talent at their disposal, especially after last years trades, it proves one of two scenarios -- either the players weren't worthy of their hype, or the Sox organization failed at developing and/or maintaining their health.

Someone said earlier it doesn't matter which players succeed, as long as some of them do. Absolutely not true. You mean to tell me if Hansen, Collins, Stephens, and Burger are the future high-end talent from within the organization, it wouldn't matter that none of the players we acquired in recent trades succeeded? That would be a terrible indictment of our organization. Every major trade (Eaton/Quintana/Sale) NEEDS two, at the absolute minimum one successful and contributing part to push forward this rebuild. 

Hahn also needs two other factors to go his way for this team to reach its potential -- a crap for gold type of trade, and a low value, high return FA signing. Every WS team has a combination of internal development, FA signings, and those one-sided trades. I know it seems obvious, but atleast two/three need to happen. Hahn has been miserable in both categories, and our minor league development (while on the right track) has experienced the built in excuse of injuries, as of now. It's not enough to trade highly valued players for a highly valued return; no, you need a Cashner for Arrieta trade. One where an absolute stud is received for garbage. Basically what Shields for Tatis Jr did......but benefitting us. 

[Flash]

When you go around the horn of the elite teams in the AL (Houston, Boston, Yankees and to a lesser extent the Indians) and compare each positional player vs. what the White Sox send out, you get a sense for the talent gap. We still need high potential players who can close those gaps. Given our lack of trade chips, I would like to see us take on a bad contract or two if it helps land more young talent. I'm guessing the Cardinals might love to move Fowler and Yankees still have Ellsbury who clutters up their payroll.  What if we took on one of these guys along with a young prospect or two. Knizner (C. on Cardinals) and, or Sheffield (LH P. Yankees) would be nice gets.

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, Flash said:

When you go around the horn of the elite teams in the AL (Houston, Boston, Yankees and to a lesser extent the Indians) and compare each positional player vs. what the White Sox send out, you get a sense for the talent gap. We still need high potential players who can close those gaps. Given our lack of trade chips, I would like to see us take on a bad contract or two if it helps land more young talent. I'm guessing the Cardinals might love to move Fowler and Yankees still have Ellsbury who clutters up their payroll.  What if we took on one of these guys along with a young prospect or two. Knizner (C. on Cardinals) and, or Sheffield (LH P. Yankees) would be nice gets.

Have you noticed how every offseason we see this suggested and no team in baseball actually seems to be doing these kinds of deals? 

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Have you noticed how every offseason we see this suggested and no team in baseball actually seems to be doing these kinds of deals? 

Of course, when a bad contract gets absorbed, it actually turns into a net positive for the Dodgers (Kemp).

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Of course, when a bad contract gets absorbed, it actually turns into a net positive for the Dodgers (Kemp).

And that was still bad money for bad money, just a different payout schedule.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And that was still bad money for bad money, just a different payout schedule.

The White Sox paid Robert what, $50 million counting bonuses? If a team wants to Shed $50 million, they're just not willing to give up a player of Robert's caliber to do so, and if a team only wants to shed $20 million or so, they're not willing to give up a top 50 or top 75 guy to shed that small of an amount. The financial pressures in baseball just aren't as high as in leagues where teams have to maneuver around a salary cap, the teams would rather just eat the bad contract and keep the prospect.

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The White Sox paid Robert what, $50 million counting bonuses? If a team wants to Shed $50 million, they're just not willing to give up a player of Robert's caliber to do so, and if a team only wants to shed $20 million or so, they're not willing to give up a top 50 or top 75 guy to shed that small of an amount. The financial pressures in baseball just aren't as high as in leagues where teams have to maneuver around a salary cap, the teams would rather just eat the bad contract and keep the prospect.

I've been saying this for a couple of years. Way back when Dan Berstein wrote on the Score's website how the Sox were going to take on all this bad money, have a payroll by the luxury tax, he called it the salary cap, and gain all these great prospects because of it. It doesn't work that way. For one thing, like it or not, prospects for the most part, are highly overvalued. Add that most of these teams are making money, they would rather just pay the bad money now and take their chances they can get production for minimum for a few years.

[caulfield12]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/07/30/padres-trade-matt-kemp-braves-hector-oliveras/87830222/

Forgot how they kept playing musical chairs with Hector Olivera and Kemp deals before he eventually ended up in LA again...of course, Olivera originally signed by LA in perhaps the worst Cuban deal ever (Rusney Castillo would be right up there.)

But these deals are not netting elite under 25 prospects.

 

White Sox need one of these:

Shelby Miller for Swanson, Inciarte, Blair and Speier...or the other terrible DBacks’ move, Touki Toussaint and Arroyo (contract dump of just $9.5 mill) for IF Phil Gosselin.

[SCCWS]

19 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

But between Fry, Cease, Collins, Rutherford, Basabe, Adolfo, Hamilton, Rivera, etc. it has gone as or better than planned. Win some, lose some 

Hopefully it is just an adjustment,  but Fry looks overcooked in July. Seems like Covey, the more he has pitched batters seem to be getting to him with more success. 

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Hopefully it is just an adjustment,  but Fry looks overcooked in July. Seems like Covey, the more he has pitched batters seem to be getting to him with more success. 

Farmer believes he’s (Covey) tipping his pitches...fatigue, as well?  Velocity hasn’t been as consistent.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Farmer believes he’s (Covey) tipping his pitches...fatigue, as well?  Velocity hasn’t been as consistent.

What he was throwing those first few starts, he could tip them all he wanted and they weren't going to hit it. It was hard, and moving. He started off pretty well last night, but really faded once he had to go to the stretch. 

[StrangeSox]

10 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you truly believe both things are true here, I have no idea how you can reconcile both of those ideas at the same time.

The Sox can't develop young talent, so let's balance the entire future on it, and be excited the team is doing it.

 

 

what is the alternative though

I mean yeah ultimately you need a good GM and good development to get to the playoffs and win, if the Sox are terrible at it what manner they choose to be terrible doesn't really matter much

[steveno89]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Have you noticed how every offseason we see this suggested and no team in baseball actually seems to be doing these kinds of deals? 

Baseball is still a business first and foremost, and I can understand the hesitancy to absorb bad, fully guaranteed, contracts. Teams generally are not willing to part with high quality prospects just to shed salary, and tend to ride them out instead of trying to deal them. 

[Dick Allen]

While everyone looks at the rebuilds of the Astros and the Cubs, the 2 very different approaches are both of those teams concentrated on bats, and picked up pitching later. The other difference is both of those teams had a regime change for their rebuild. They realized getting in the position to have to do what was being done without a history of really good teams meant you probably have a problem with your talent evaluation. I don't know how anyone can assume guys with questionable ability identifying major league talent, would have no problem identifying minor league players who will be future stars. Don't the Sox drafts sort of give that away.

This either works really well, or RH and KW need to be shown the door. Probably a door they should have been shown a while ago. 

[flavum]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

While everyone looks at the rebuilds of the Astros and the Cubs, the 2 very different approaches are both of those teams concentrated on bats, and picked up pitching later. The other difference is both of those teams had a regime change for their rebuild. They realized getting in the position to have to do what was being done without a history of really good teams meant you probably have a problem with your talent evaluation. I don't know how anyone can assume guys with questionable ability identifying major league talent, would have no problem identifying minor league players who will be future stars. Don't the Sox drafts sort of give that away.

This either works really well, or RH and KW need to be shown the door. Probably a door they should have been shown a while ago. 

I think it was a given when they started the rebuild- it bought everyone about 4-5 years of security to see it through. If it doesn’t work, everyone involved should know they’re done here. We’re just waiting patiently (in most cases) to see what the team looks like in 2020-21.

[Chicago White Sox]

25 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

What he was throwing those first few starts, he could tip them all he wanted and they weren't going to hit it. It was hard, and moving. He started off pretty well last night, but really faded once he had to go to the stretch. 

From I’ve seen, teams are simply sitting on the fastball the second time around.  It’s still a quality pitch, but he’s got to mix it up more with his secondary stuff.

[Jack Parkman]

14 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

And to continue that narrative, will continue to ignore positives in the developmental team by adding more qualifiers so as to disqualify any success stories.

Where are the success stories over the years 2006-17? 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Where are the success stories over the years 2006-17? 

Christ Getz & team have been around since 2006?

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Christ Getz & team have been around since 2006?

And Hostetler

And Paddy

Etc.  But loyalty.