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White Sox will not win until their players produce

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There's a pretty hot topic on the site about firing Robin Ventura today. And elsewhere there are the usual rantings about dumping Avisail Garcia.

 

It's pretty easy to support these ideas.

 

The problem is, those kinds of moves will not likely solve the Sox' ills. What is needed, instead, is for the "good" players on the Sox to play much better than they have.

 

Jose Abreu. 9 HR, .422 slugging percentage. 0.6 OWAR.

Todd Frazier. .205 BA. 19 HR, but only .464 slugging percentage.

Brett Lawrie. .397 slugging percentage, under .700 OPS.

Dioner Navarro. Hitting worse than Flowers did last year. Worst framer in baseball.

Carlos Rodon. 4.28 ERA, 1.5 WHIP.

James Shields. Somehow much worse than Danks or Latos or anyone else in his first two outings.

David Robertson. Blew 7-1 9th inning lead against the Royals.

Nate Jones. Blew 3 run lead the next night against the Royals.

 

I could add more.

 

Perhaps a manager change would cause some of these players to improve. It's not clear what it will take.

 

But make no mistake, until the core of the White Sox produces like they should, making changes around the fringe is not likely to catapult this team into contention. The team might have it in them. They did start 23-10, after all. Then again, they still can't solve their own division.

 

Hard to see an easy solution here.

 

 

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You bring up some very good points. The Sox the past decade always seem to be between "the rock and a hard place..." with no clear answers, no easy solutions.

 

They aren't willing to "blow it up" and start over yet they aren't willing to commit the monstrous money needed to get the top of the line free agents when they become available (which granted isn't often). They go "dumpster diving" a lot (with the usual results) and still don't have a quality minor league feeder system that can be used for reinforcements or to trade for established quality vets who aren't on the downside of 30.

 

Wish I had the answer but that's why the front office folks get paid what they do...to solve the problem.

 

Mark

 

 

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http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/6/16/1195...e-for-white-sox

 

This article states JR (once again/recently) reaffirmed that he's not selling the team anytime soon...

 

 

Expecting much out of Navarro or Avila was pretty dubious, at best.

 

Everyone is very familiar with the struggles (recently) of NL players coming over to the Sox, highlighted by Dunn/LaRoche.

 

Lawrie was basically a replacement level player for most of the last 2-3 seasons...started out pretty well (especially compared to Sanchez offensively), but he's not someone who you could really count on to be a 3 or even 2 WAR player. I'd say his results so far are about what was expected, more or less. Maybe a touch better than expected defensively.

 

 

I'll agree with the premise that Rodon/Abreu are the two keys.

 

 

And, on the other hand, nobody expected Anderson to have an 840 OPS and thrive (so far) in the leadoff role.

 

Nobody expected the entire outfield defense to come unhinged at the seams when Austin Jackson (who's barely above replacement value) went out with his meniscus tear.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 03:12 PM)
The thread topic is hilarious in its simple accuracy.

Definitely laughed when I saw it.

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And, if the MAIN culprit is the offense, then you'd think Steverson would be more under the gun.

 

But the accumulation of slides in 2012, slow start to 2015, collapse after 23-10 start in 2016 and poor fundamentals/defense/execution/general sloppiness in 2013 and 2014 have basically forced the issues. It's not just bullpen management or line-ups or any one particular thing, it's just the general lack of results and inconsistency.

 

 

However, if the entire team starts to fall apart because of Austin Jackson no longer patrolling CF, then more of the blame has to be on Rick Hahn because of the lack of internal depth to fill the majority of positions on the diamond...which forced him into adding James Shields, has caused something of a bullpen merry-go-round and has still left the Avi Garcia/DH/RF issue unresolved at least a year later than everyone declared it to be an obvious issue.

 

It shouldn't be THAT hard to find, at the very least, a relatively cheap way to cobble together a couple of platoon hitters like a Pearce or Raburn in order to confidently trot out a 775-800 OPS out of that DH spot.

 

 

Finally, in what has become an "all in" season again, having Ian Desmond's numbers at SS or LF/CF/RF/DH would have the White Sox in first place or darned close to it. And the draft pick would simply have been deferred one year. The price tag went from $8 million this March to what is likely to be closer to the $107 million he turned down from the Nationals 18 months ago.

 

 

As usual, the blame goes around to Ventura, Hahn, JR, Steverson and KW...assessing a percentage of blame is impossible, it's "soft math" for saber guys so it remains an area without any emerging consensus. (Things are still much better than idiotic Pythagorean wins and losses, though.) Don Cooper continues to have lifetime tenure, for good or bad.

Edited by caulfield12

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When almost every single player under performs projections, both fan and saber, for years, it's time to question the man leading those players. This is a pattern and the pattern is that under RV the team underachieves relative to the talent on the roster. Most people on this forum projected the team to be around 82-88 wins. If they win less than that there is NOT A CHANCE IN HELL YOU BRING BACK RV YET AGAIN.

 

The White Sox are basically Einstein's definition of insanity. They do the same thing over and over and over that doesn't work.

 

INB4 Dick Allen's "but what if they fire RV and it turns out he was really a HOF manager".

Edited by chitownsportsfan

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 05:04 PM)
And, if the MAIN culprit is the offense, then you'd think Steverson would be more under the gun.

 

But the accumulation of slides in 2012, slow start to 2015, collapse after 23-10 start in 2016 and poor fundamentals/defense/execution/general sloppiness in 2013 and 2014 have basically forced the issues. It's not just bullpen management or line-ups or any one particular thing, it's just the general lack of results and inconsistency.

 

 

However, if the entire team starts to fall apart because of Austin Jackson no longer patrolling CF, then more of the blame has to be on Rick Hahn because of the lack of internal depth to fill the majority of positions on the diamond...which forced him into adding James Shields, has caused something of a bullpen merry-go-round and has still left the Avi Garcia/DH/RF issue unresolved at least a year later than everyone declared it to be an obvious issue.

 

It shouldn't be THAT hard to find, at the very least, a relatively cheap way to cobble together a couple of platoon hitters like a Pearce or Raburn in order to confidently trot out a 775-800 OPS out of that DH spot.

 

 

Finally, in what has become an "all in" season again, having Ian Desmond's numbers at SS or LF/CF/RF/DH would have the White Sox in first place or darned close to it. And the draft pick would simply have been deferred one year. The price tag went from $8 million this March to what is likely to be closer to the $107 million he turned down from the Nationals 18 months ago.

 

 

As usual, the blame goes around to Ventura, Hahn, JR, Steverson and KW...assessing a percentage of blame is impossible, it's "soft math" for saber guys so it remains an area without any emerging consensus. (Things are still much better than idiotic Pythagorean wins and losses, though.) Don Cooper continues to have lifetime tenure, for good or bad.

 

Did you break your keyboard with this post?

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 04:09 PM)
Did you break your keyboard with this post?

 

Not sure I understand the comment. Sounded reasonable and brought up valid points in my opinion.

 

Mark

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 04:42 PM)
http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/6/16/1195...e-for-white-sox

 

This article states JR (once again/recently) reaffirmed that he's not selling the team anytime soon...

 

 

Expecting much out of Navarro or Avila was pretty dubious, at best.

 

Everyone is very familiar with the struggles (recently) of NL players coming over to the Sox, highlighted by Dunn/LaRoche.

 

Lawrie was basically a replacement level player for most of the last 2-3 seasons...started out pretty well (especially compared to Sanchez offensively), but he's not someone who you could really count on to be a 3 or even 2 WAR player. I'd say his results so far are about what was expected, more or less. Maybe a touch better than expected defensively.

 

 

I'll agree with the premise that Rodon/Abreu are the two keys.

 

 

And, on the other hand, nobody expected Anderson to have an 840 OPS and thrive (so far) in the leadoff role.

 

Nobody expected the entire outfield defense to come unhinged at the seams when Austin Jackson (who's barely above replacement value) went out with his meniscus tear.

 

He shot down being Deadline sellers , no mention of selling the team. How in the name of Hector Santiago would you get that?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 05:24 PM)
He shot down being Deadline sellers , no mention of selling the team. How in the name of Hector Santiago would you get that?

 

 

Bruce Levine/Jim Margalus

 

Meanwhile, in other media speculation, Jerry Reinsdorf shot down Bruce Levine's idea that the Sox might consider selling at the All-Star break:

 

As for the speculation in my story, Reinsdorf told me in his own instructive way that he had no plans for anything but a full-out attack on helping his front office find a way to win now. The meeting was brief and friendly. Knowing Reinsdorf for many years, I knew he was suggesting that although I wasn’t hurting anyone with my "panning for gold" speculation, rebooting and selling off wasn’t in the organization’s plans.

 

Star-divide

 

 

As far as the unabated rude questions to Ventura at the press conference (pre-game Wed), it was some dude named Benkowski I've never even heard of...that was the first time he's ever walked out, from my recollection.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 06:34 PM)
Bruce Levine

 

 

As far as the unabated rude questions to Ventura at the press conference (pre-game Wed), it was some dude named Benkowski I've never even heard of...that was the first time he's ever walked out, from my recollection.

Pat Benkowski?

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I guess. Don't know the Chicago media market well other than radio/print.

 

Someone who works for a t.v. station and doesn't ordinarily come out every day to cover the team...asked about 5 questions regarding the issues with Avi Garcia, why he wasn't getting coaching/improving or why he was playing in the field, etc. Then it turned to why Sale didn't get a visit from Ventura or the pitching coach "quickly enough" when he was in the process of surrendering those 3 runs.

 

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/6/16/1195...e-for-white-sox

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 06:48 PM)
I guess. Don't know the Chicago media market well other than radio/print.

 

Someone who works for a t.v. station and doesn't ordinarily come out every day to cover the team...asked about 5 questions regarding the issues with Avi Garcia, why he wasn't getting coaching/improving or why he was playing in the field, etc.

Pat Benkowski is a guy that used to have a interview/feature/trivia show on Sportschannel in the early 90s.Several years ago I saw a show at about 3 am, he had faded. I think now he may be on public access. I think the questioning probably got him a lifetime ban on CSN. Assuming it is the same Benkowski

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Guess he went into that press conference (pre-game) deliberately trying to make national news by getting Ventura to blow his top...which of course just doesn't ever happen.

 

 

As far as the topic, as to Southsider2k5, they're definitely going to have to outscore the Red Sox in Fenway. Not sure about the pitching match-ups, but the Indians are already excited to get a series with the Sox and not have to face Chris Sale.

 

 

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 04:56 PM)
Guess he went into that press conference (pre-game) deliberately trying to make national news by getting Ventura to blow his top...which of course just doesn't ever happen.

 

 

As far as the topic, as to Southsider2k5, they're definitely going to have to outscore the Red Sox in Fenway. Not sure about the pitching match-ups, but the Indians are already excited to get a series with the Sox and not have to face Chris Sale.

They happen to do pretty well against Sale as well, don't they?

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 01:49 PM)
You bring up some very good points. The Sox the past decade always seem to be between "the rock and a hard place..." with no clear answers, no easy solutions.

 

They aren't willing to "blow it up" and start over yet they aren't willing to commit the monstrous money needed to get the top of the line free agents when they become available (which granted isn't often). They go "dumpster diving" a lot (with the usual results) and still don't have a quality minor league feeder system that can be used for reinforcements or to trade for established quality vets who aren't on the downside of 30.

 

Wish I had the answer but that's why the front office folks get paid what they do...to solve the problem.

 

Mark

 

Improved scouting and development. Ditch the "nepotism" meaning don't litter it with former players.

 

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 06:09 PM)
Did you break your keyboard with this post?

 

Quit quoting him.

 

Please.

 

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QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 05:09 PM)
Did you break your keyboard with this post?

 

You actually read his posts?

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As long you don't quote him, they're easy to ignore:

 

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: caulfield12.

 

· View this post

· Un-ignore caulfield12

 

 

Which is why I implored him to stop quoting him.

Edited by CB2.0

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