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QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 11:29 AM)
I don't see the Semien/Micah/Sanchez pileup and Timmy as that closely related. Despite the plan clearly being to move Anderson along quickly, we still went and acquired a 2B who ultimately isn't as good as Semien. I think we'd be a better team with Semien instead of Lawrie, especially when you factor in years of control. We'll see if Ynoa and Burdi can bridge the gap.

 

We also lost the possibility of trading semien for some other package.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 08:44 AM)
I see this narrative so much here at SoxTalk and I wish it would die. Since about the halfway point of last year Semien has been a passable shortstop. There have been articles about how he was coached up and his error rate plummeted to prove it. He made an error every 27 innings through June of last year; since then he has made one every 72 innings.

 

However else people wanna feel about that trade, okay. It's a trade that will be debated forever. But let's stop saying that Marcus Semien can't be a decent middle infielder in the majors.

That's why I said WAS.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 10:29 AM)
I don't see the Semien/Micah/Sanchez pileup and Timmy as that closely related. Despite the plan clearly being to move Anderson along quickly, we still went and acquired a 2B who ultimately isn't as good as Semien. I think we'd be a better team with Semien instead of Lawrie, especially when you factor in years of control. We'll see if Ynoa and Burdi can bridge the gap.

Don't hold your breath.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 11:29 AM)
I don't see the Semien/Micah/Sanchez pileup and Timmy as that closely related. Despite the plan clearly being to move Anderson along quickly, we still went and acquired a 2B who ultimately isn't as good as Semien. I think we'd be a better team with Semien instead of Lawrie, especially when you factor in years of control. We'll see if Ynoa and Burdi can bridge the gap.

 

I think it was a multi level decision, and I think they were related to an extent. #1, they didn't see Semien as starting material on a playoff team. #2, they knew whoever played SS wouldn't be there long term as they really liked Anderson and were getting a place ready for him. So why save Semien when they didn't really buy in on him anyways, and he could get them a #2 starter. #3 they figured between the guys they had leftover that they could find a 2B, at least short term. #4 they really liked Samardjiza, especially as a right handed, innings eating RHP to slot in between Sale and Q, and they knew he liked Chicago so they figured that they would be able to extend him, probably below market value.

 

Now obviously not everything played to plan. Samardjiza ended up having the worst year of his career and leaving town. If he pitches like normal, he probably is extended and is still here, thus negating the loss of the player for only the comp pick. Obviously the Sox soured on him while he was here, and weren't willing to stick their necks out for an extension after the initial early talks. The deal looks entirely different is Samardjiza doesn't suck.

 

It is also worth noting that where the Sox were on Semien, they could very well of sent him off in a different deal, for example looking to get Todd Frazier earlier, or another power-hitting OF. If the Sox don't believe in a guy, they sure aren't scared of moving them along for something else that fits their needs better.

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One thing not addressed - why didn't the White Sox believe in a guy. Why weren't they willing to coach him into a decent player when another team was?

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 01:05 PM)
One thing not addressed - why didn't the White Sox believe in a guy. Why weren't they willing to coach him into a decent player when another team was?

 

Because he got them a #2 starter.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 02:40 PM)
I get that people don't want sox to be burned by trading away thompson/montas/m.johnson, but the constant effort to trash anyone as terrible as soon as they leave. The constant refrain of how Semein will never make it (newsflash, his defense has improved and he is a good hitter) and oh, how terrible Trayce is. Trayce is better than Austin Jackson.

 

If you would have asked what TT was last year, everyone pretty much would have been happy if he was a .740 OPS CF with dope defense. But on the Dodgers he's awful, terrible.

 

I hope Trayce is great. He deserves time to develop. He may end up as someone who just had three hot ML months, or those three hot ML months show that he can play at this level. Give him time.

Great post. I don't understand why people refuse to blast our front office for dumping Semien and Trayce. Look Semien ONCE was a shoddy defensive player. Now he's more than good at ss. He has perfect power for the Cell. Trayce is a good hitter and nice prospect. He's also blasted 11 homers which means he'd be a nice power guy at the Cell. We need home runs and left a lot on the table. Samardjia was horrific as a Sox pitcher.

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Everyone seems to forget part of it was Micah was supposed to anchor 2B.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:24 PM)
Everyone seems to forget part of it was Micah was supposed to anchor 2B.

 

Yeah, that was terrible talent evaluation.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:29 PM)
Yeah, that was terrible talent evaluation.

 

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many here would agree with that back then.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:24 PM)
Everyone seems to forget part of it was Micah was supposed to anchor 2B.

 

Sure they sold it that way, but they sure as hell didn't stick to it. They got him up here, evaluated him, and got rid of him. They sure weren't scared to move on from him.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:30 PM)
Out of curiosity, I wonder how many here would agree with that back then.

 

What would it matter?At some point the talent evaluators of the white sox will need to get some results.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:06 PM)
What would it matter?At some point the talent evaluators of the white sox will need to get some results.

 

I would argue that turning players that weren't going to make it into a starting player would be "getting results".

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 09:40 AM)
I get that people don't want sox to be burned by trading away thompson/montas/m.johnson, but the constant effort to trash anyone as terrible as soon as they leave. The constant refrain of how Semein will never make it (newsflash, his defense has improved and he is a good hitter) and oh, how terrible Trayce is. Trayce is better than Austin Jackson.

 

If you would have asked what TT was last year, everyone pretty much would have been happy if he was a .740 OPS CF with dope defense. But on the Dodgers he's awful, terrible.

 

I hope Trayce is great. He deserves time to develop. He may end up as someone who just had three hot ML months, or those three hot ML months show that he can play at this level. Give him time.

This definitely goes both ways on this site. There are people who are always going to jump to trash someone we traded away and there are always going to be plenty of people who are automatically going to love the players we traded away.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:30 PM)
Out of curiosity, I wonder how many here would agree with that back then.

 

anybody with half a brain and two working eyes. His minor league numbers were mediocre offensively and the scouting reports on his defense were brutal -- and he was always very old for his level. That the dude is not in MLB currently and was given a total of 3 PA by the Dodgers should surprise nobody.

 

I continually railed against the idea of Micah as the starting 2B and I remember only a few were on my side.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:13 PM)
I would argue that turning players that weren't going to make it into a starting player would be "getting results".

 

For 1 year? 2 years? When we are marginally competing? We're at a laundrymat paying 10 paper dollars for 16 quarters.

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QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:34 PM)
anybody with half a brain and two working eyes. His minor league numbers were mediocre offensively and the scouting reports on his defense were brutal -- and he was always very old for his level. That the dude is not in MLB currently and was given a total of 3 PA by the Dodgers should surprise nobody.

 

I continually railed against the idea of Micah as the starting 2B and I remember only a few were on my side.

 

Makes you wish you could go back in time as a GM and try including Johnson in the deal over Semien.

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 09:13 PM)
This definitely goes both ways on this site. There are people who are always going to jump to trash someone we traded away and there are always going to be plenty of people who are automatically going to love the players we traded away.

There's also a third group of people: Ones who see how the players we trade away perform. If they perform like Semien and Trayce then of course we're going to be mad. You can't blindly support your team when they do something dumb. Hopefully the Semien deal won't be as bad as the worst deal in Chicago history: Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio. If Semien is a 30-40 HR guy every year, he's the next Ernie Banks (sorry for all the Cub references).

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:38 PM)
For 1 year? 2 years? When we are marginally competing? We're at a laundrymat paying 10 paper dollars for 16 quarters.

 

As opposed to having no starting players at all but still the original minor leaguers?

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 01:08 PM)
Because he got them a #2 starter.

Great point.

 

I would rather give up the Marcus Semiens and Trayce Thompsons of the world that bring back the types of players like Shark (already forgot how to spell his damn last name!) and Frazier, guys of a certain caliber who could presumably contribute to a contending team, than give up nobody but sign bottom of the barrel types like a 37 year-old Rollins or Mat Latos, who won't help get the team anywhere. It goes back to the old adage: you have to give up something to get something.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 05:44 PM)
There's also a third group of people: Ones who see how the players we trade away perform. If they perform like Semien and Trayce then of course we're going to be mad. You can't blindly support your team when they do something dumb. Hopefully the Semien deal won't be as bad as the worst deal in Chicago history: Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio. If Semien is a 30-40 HR guy every year, he's the next Ernie Banks (sorry for all the Cub references).

 

If Semien is the next Ernor Banks, I'll eat CB2.0's hat and bet your house.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:50 PM)
As opposed to having no starting players at all but still the original minor leaguers?

 

? Not sure what you mean by no starting players at all and minor leaguers. Semien was a starter for nearly a year. Trayce was up for 3 months. Phegley a year. Bassitt for a bit. We traded young MLB talent for 1 / 2 yr players.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 09:56 PM)
Great point.

 

I would rather give up the Marcus Semiens and Trayce Thompsons of the world that bring back the types of players like Shark (already forgot how to spell his damn last name!) and Frazier, guys of a certain caliber who could presumably contribute to a contending team, than give up nobody but sign bottom of the barrel types like a 37 year-old Rollins or Mat Latos, who won't help get the team anywhere. It goes back to the old adage: you have to give up something to get something.

We have a very forgiving fanbase. The Shark trade on paper is a disaster right now with Semien performing and Phegs serviceable. Didn't we give up a third piece as well? Shark was a monumental colossal disaster even if the trade may have "made sense." A lot of us don't like giving up our "name" prospects in deals.

For example, if we were to trade Robertson and Frazier and Melky and Lawrie soon, I'd like to get back players just like Semien and Trayce plus more than that.

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The Frazier trade was a fair trade, I just don't like the timing we did it. We all like this draft class, well how soon will we be clamoring to use them to get a relief upgrade, or CF upgrade that may only help us for that year? And what if that only improves us a bit? There's costs to accelerating this build and the thing that annoys me is we could have just used money to do it but instead are trading away cheap depth instead of spending money and then will always be 1 injury away from major ML issues.

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QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:13 PM)
This definitely goes both ways on this site. There are people who are always going to jump to trash someone we traded away and there are always going to be plenty of people who are automatically going to love the players we traded away.

 

 

It's more the fact that we were rebuilding and everything was going along fine until the 2014-15 offseason approached.

 

Then they got impatient and tried to rush forward, in the back of their minds certainly being aware they wouldn't have the financial resources to sustain an "all in" year unless EVERY MOVE THEY MADE TURNED OUT PERFECTLY.

 

While we might not be much better off record-wise, an infield of Semien at 3B/2B, Anderson at SS, Thompson in CF, Montas still in the system (and Saladino as super-sub/Zobrist lite rotating around at different positions)...that would be a lot more exciting to watch and have potential for future improvement. Also, a lot more athleticism.

 

Between Montas, Hansen, Fulmer, Adams and Jordan Stephens, we'd have enough pieces to fill the bullpen needs and back of the starting rotation. That team would also be much more affordable/cost-effective, providing payroll space for other fixes like the DH issue with Avi Garcia.

 

 

 

And yeah, I did say they pretty much needed to trade Semien because it was clear the organization had already given up on him and he wasn't likely to get another shot...so why not try to turn him into an asset to fill another need? It's not like any of us here can go out and hire individual coaches and bring them to USCF and force them on the White Sox front office to fix their own development and lack of patience with young player issues...(of course, for some reason, they fixate on other guys like Beckham, Flowers and Viciedo and give them way too much time, with Avi Garcia being the most currently example of that phenomenon.)

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