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QUOTE (ChiSoxJon @ Nov 8, 2014 -> 06:19 AM) I expect us to miss out on V-Mart considering we're the f***in White Sox, which might be a good thing, don't wanna pay that a 37 year old, and grab Morales, other than that just grab me closer and some relief and I'll be happy, maybe some solid bench options The more people object to Martinez the older he gets He won't be 36 until 12/23 .

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 7, 2014 -> 07:27 AM) Semien was the one they tried out there so I'm guessing if any of the MIs get moved to LF it'd be him. That's exactly what I was thinking but was rather disappointed after he came back up that he didn't play any OF after he had in the minors. I know everyone is thinking LH hitting OF but maybe Semien could be the full timer out there as long as we get a LH DH or switch hitting DH for the middle of the order.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 7, 2014 -> 11:58 AM) I really like what you say here. Saunders could be a very good alternative to spending money on Rasmus. That money could be spent somewhere else and get rid of Tank and his salary. I hope the Sox explore this possibility. Tank $2.8M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 26 on 3/10/ 2015 , Bats RH , Nickname Tank Saunders $2.3M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 28 on 11/19/2014 , Bats LH , Nickname "The Condor" I've been championing Saunders for quite a while now as that low salaried , LH, good defense guy entering prime for RF with a move of Avi to left. Wish the guy could stay healthy though . But I know many of us want the defense to improve and thats why I targeted him in the 1st place and for all the other reasons I just mentioned . Seems like many teams want him so doubtful just Viciedo gets him. Saunders video highlights including just about everything you'd like to see http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/search/med...10&c_id=mlb Sales nickname is also "The Condor" in some circles. Don't see it used here much but it is on SSS. There are going to be positions that can have a slim upgrade which I think Saunders is over Viciedo . Better defense is key for me here along with hitting LH but has to stay healthy. He hasn't exactly piled up the AB's in his career yet so it's hard to say what he could produce over a full season.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 7, 2014 -> 04:14 AM) Swinging and missing is only part of the problem. Isn't it also trying to do something with a pitch, which doesn't lend itself to the hitters intent? That's what I mean by the willingness to take an outside pitch, the other way, to the opposite field. No matter how much you want to hit and do something with it you still have to hit it 1st . If it was easy we'd see more . 300 hitters and less K's but its extremely difficult considering even the best hitters fail 7 of 10 times. I'd recommend reading Ted Williams ' The Science of Hitting " which Tony Gwynn read in HS and he idolized Williams or Gwynn's own book " The Art of Hitting . " But this Deadspin article ( http://deadspin.com/how-tony-gwynn-cracked...lege-1591491368 ) on Gwynn should be insightful. Every hitting coach should know these books inside and out and every organization should require every hitter in the system to read them.

Anyone remember when VMart signed with Detroit ? I was reading that back then the Sox offered him more money than the Tigers along the lines of 3/$48M but he chose the Tigers for more years less AAV and that Adam Dunn was actually our fall back signing. Hasn't Hahn hinted that the Sox could be going after someone we have pursued in the past ?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 7, 2014 -> 12:09 AM) This is what I was thinking. If Sox trade him, they are in major rebuilding mode no matter what they are telling us fans. You sure have turned into a debbie downer. And no trading Alexei would not mean that . He's a 33 year old SS and our best trade asset being the oldest member of the core and quite desirable. Depending on Hahn's success level this offseason the rebuild is nearly finished since some of us expect contention as early as 2015 and others 2016. But I will admit that Alexei would be very hard to replace and a stopgap SS for a year isn't very desirable.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 7, 2014 -> 02:31 AM) Isn't a key component of being able to hit "bad pitches," the willingness to hit the ball where it's pitched? For example; going the other way, on an outside pitch. There are a lot of base hits in those kinds of pitches, but not if the batter tries to pull them. I'm reminded of Adam Dunn. It was always very frustrating to me to watch him take outside pitches, which he could have easily hit to the, virtually undefended, left side. A hitter with poor discipline tries to pull that pitch, and rolls over on it, for a ground out, to the pull side. Often, Dunn did demonstrate good plate discipline by taking that pitch for a ball. However, he could have had a double, by simply taking the pitch the other way. Moreover, by not trying to pull the ball, there is more time to recognize the speed, location and movement of the pitch. That extra time helps offset any loss of bad speed, which comes with age. Perhaps that is what Victor does, and at least in part, why he is such a great hitter. The key component to hitting bad pitches as it is with any pitches is to be able to not swing and miss and as we have seen over the years the strikeout rate is rising dramatically which makes VMart such an anomaly. He was the only player in the ML to walk more than he K'ed.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Nov 6, 2014 -> 07:21 PM) Signing Victor Martinez is the definition of an all-in move, because not only are you committing a significant portion of your payroll dollars, but you're committing them to a guy who is highly likely to produce diminishing returns over the life of the contract, because players in any sport tend to age like milk after 35, with the rare exception that usually ends up in a Hall of Fame. Further, you're taking assets away from your farm system by signing him. Note that I am not advocating against signing free agents this offseason, nor am I advocating against a strategy that takes assets away from the farm system. My point is that the timing has to be right, and right now is not the right time. My argument was more for signing free agents this year as opposed to next year as you advocated because it's closer to contention whether it's VMart or not. The 3 things I listed are very important as far as when is the right time to make your moves. To my way of thinking way more important then the contention window. And as others have pointed out the Sox have some history of having a bad record the year before they make the playoffs. But VMart does not take away "assets" he takes away a 2nd round pick or later if the Sox sign another QO offer free agent before they were to sign him . I just don't understand what free agents won't produce "diminishing returns" since most are over 30 already or be a signing with multiple warts to begin with. The top free agents might get 5/6 year contracts for over $100M. Others could come from the NL which I am always leery about. At least VMart knows the league , the pitchers and the opponents we play the most since he's from the same division.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Nov 6, 2014 -> 08:25 AM) I disagree. I think that because this team is at least a full season away from contention no matter what they do, they might as well stock up the farm system as much as possible this year while also building toward a contender. Yes, it means losing a higher pick next year in all likelihood, however, when you're shifting toward contention, building the farm becomes less of a concern, though it should still exist as a concern. Really surprised to hear you say that. You talk of building the farm yet you'd be willing to give up a 1st and 2nd rounder over a 2nd and 3rd rounder only a year apart so it really makes no difference in the contention window but means very much in the talent level. Luckily I think Hahn knows that if theres going to be a large influx of talent this is the year to do it . If you need more talent next year, then at least Hahn's got more tradeable assets because right now we can get very little in trade unless we trade prospects and don't think Hahn will be doing that either unless he thinks he's fleecing someone. So basically thats 3 factors that say add as much talent as you can this year : 1. Protected 1st round pick 2. Low payroll 3. Lack of tradeable assets outside of the core and prospects. This is not an " All In " approach as some have labled it. It's just the most logical conclusion to come to when looking at factors that matter.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 6, 2014 -> 01:56 PM) I think this is the TL;DR crux of the article: He's definitely a fascinating case. Is Vlad Guerrero a good comp? I'd hate to set expectations against an n of 1, though. I might be worse than an n of zero. I have no idea what you just said . But the article tells me something I didn't know . VMart is a great bad ball hitter. The rest sort of confirms what I saw with my own eyes and with his stats. There are absolutely 0 signs of decline at the moment. I could point to LaRoche's last 2 years of production against lefties as a sign of decline but nothing pops up for VMart. Reference to Lillian : I don't think that particular talent can be taught , because there are guys who K a ton with pitches in the zone let alone out of the zone. But maybe there is something in his approach that can be taught like when to look for certain pitches and in what zones. I'd like to see which pitches he is the most successful at hitting out of the zone . Maybe it's that he's learned to recognize, for instance, pitches that will be below the strike zone and zeros in on pitches between knee high and belt high and what zone to look for them . So if he's looking inside or outside he can still react to a ball even off the plate because it's part of the area he's zoning in on in his head thereby eliminating 75% other zones. But regardless if pitch recognition could be taught or how to be a smart disciplined hitter there would be a lot less K's and Tank would be a superstar.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 6, 2014 -> 05:41 AM) Except there are no "ideal" players. Sandoval's projected to get $100-116 million for 5-6 years and he's probably a 725-750 OPS 3B from here on out. We know that. but there are upgrades over what we already have and in some cases big upgrades. I think the Sox can do very well without handing out any contract over 3 years to a number of free agents. We'll see if VMart gets the 4 he wants.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 6, 2014 -> 04:32 AM) No one has really said it, but Conger would have been a pretty good fit for us if they saw something they liked with him at the plate. Great defender, switch hitter, still surprisingly young. I said it a whole bunch last year.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:34 PM) Glad you asked Q1) What would you do? A1) I would target players who didn't get QOs and try to get 75% or so of the value of the players who did get QOs with 50% or less of the per year money, and 25-35% of the overall contract commitment. In doing so, I also give myself another full year of building the farm system as I don't lose my second round pick and the related slot allocation from my bonus pool. Q2) Who would you try to acquire? A2) Markakis, Headley, LaRoche, McCarthy, Billingsley, Miller, Duke, and Hochevar are examples of players I would target. None have a QO, and all could make impact contributions in 2015 and 2016. Q3) Who would you target in 2016? A3) A lot of that would depend on how the 2015 season worked out, but likely a premium hitter, maybe two, possibly a pen arm, and defense. That is, provided, of course, that I got at least one hitter, one 3-4 level starter, and at least two pen arms this off-season. Next year our 1st round pick might not be protected so if you want a premium hitter or 2 which comes attached with a qualifying offer then your giving up a 1st rd. draft pick. If we get a premium hitter or 2 this year. we give up a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick. Also if you target some of those guy above will it not impact the Sox ability to get those guys next year since you have now occupied much of the payroll flexilbilty ? If we're going to make moves for premium talent then this is the ideal year for it.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 07:02 AM) you are trying to spin this. this forum is for posters who agrees and yes disagree with others. it is meant for to talk sox baseball and other parts to talk in general. does everyone need to have the same opnion no, but lets all see where this posters is coming from and his reasons. who knows some may even learn something new. i am all for that. but when you take some comments who don't agree with you, don't try to spin it for something other than it was or is. a disagreement on what you are saying. don't belittle with smart arse comebacks that is meant anything but a put down.. i am done here and will respond no more on this subject. peace. Godd because you are wrong and wrong to judge me.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 06:54 AM) But neither of those two just maxed themselves out for the next several years by committing to declining veterans. Like I said somewhere recently (maybe earlier in this thread), it makes some sense to be a .500-ish team, but only if you can SUSTAIN it. You can't sustain it by pushing all in on a crap hand. Maybe you get the shot in the dark for a year, but guess what happens next? Rebuild. Hahn, like so many others right now, is aiming for this to be the final rebuild. I don't know if it's possible, but the idea is to take lumps now to put together something that can be reasonably competitive every year. Pushing all in on Victor Martinez, Melky Cabrera, a reclamation project starter, and a couple overpaid relievers at this point feels like taking a half court shot in 2015 at the cost of not having a prayer for the next three or four years. Wow you sign all those guys and they ALL tank to the point of sucking for the next 3 or 4 years when the Sox have Rodon Montas Danish Basitt , Micah Johnson, Semien on the horizon ?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 06:47 AM) So you've spent $30 million+ on Martinez and 2 relievers, the OF is unnamed and we're hoping for the best, we've got basically no space the next year in Free Agency because no big contracts end and several guys get more expensive, and we're "probably over .500". You've therefore summed up my problem with the concept of spending $30 million+ this offseason. I say probably over .500 because I don't like making definitive statemenrts like I know that it will actually happen . I could've phrased it " we WiLL be 10 games above .500 but I'm just taking my best guess here. Who the hell knows what would happen but I'd rather take the shot at it in a yr where our 1st round pick is protected and we have the payroll space to take advantage of that.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 06:27 AM) I think I agree with caulfield. The problem is this: posters have taken dozens of well-thought-out stabs at what going "all in" would look like this year. Some seem insane, some seem conservative, etc. And to me, ALL of them leave us with what looks like a very mediocre team. Guess I'm more optimistic than you are. Let's say Abreu, Sale Q, and Eaton perform equally well as last year. Now add VMart to the offense . Even you said his most likely best yr. if he is signed would be in the 1st yr. of the contract. Say we swap out Viciedo for Saunders or someone equal ,not trade Viciedo for that player just replace one with the other. Improve the bullpen to the point where it might be somewhat better than middle of the pack rather than at rock bottom and the Sox probably are over .500 . If a few other things go right such as Rodon and Bassitt shining a bit getting some combination of 15 W's between them, then we are in contention. Maybe Danks can even do better or Noesi . I'm not counting on it but I'd give it a 33% chance.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 05:59 AM) If the Sox are going to compete, they must have one really potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. Hitting RH pitching is always of greater value than hitting lefties, simply because there are so many more of them. In the American League, and particularly in the Central Division, the Sox will arguably have most of the best lefties in Sale, Quintana and an emerging Rodon. It makes little sense to have a lineup full of right handed hitters, with most of the good southpaws in the League, on your staff. Whether or not you agree is less important than the fact that R. Hahn has openly stated this need for a potent left handed bat. There is simply no better option available to fill that need than Victor Martinez. The arguments have already been eloquently made for signing him, including the payroll flexibility and draft protection that makes his acquisition feasible. One of the arguments against signing him has been the need to fill other holes, and the inability of the Sox to contend without first doing so. I agree in principle with the position that it only makes sense to acquire V Mart, if the Sox can contend. In fact, Martinez himself has indicated that he only wants to play for a contender. The issue for me is whether or not the front office can fill the other holes this season. Many of you have expressed concerns about needing another outfielder. Filling that hole may not be that difficult. The Sox would not need a big offensive threat at that position. With Abreu and Martinez as the 3 and 4 hitters, Eaton leading off, the on base ability of C. Gillaspie, the solid offensive contributions of A. Garcia and Alexei, they could get by with a good defensive right fielder, with a good arm and decent on base skills. That would enable them to move Garcia to LF, where his raw defensive skills would not be a liability. Remember, Avi does at least possess good speed and a strong arm. It appears that Hahn has had interest in Aoki for that role. I first thought that Shuck might be that kind of guy, but the more I read about him the less convinced I am. Aoki is intriguing because he profiles as a good 2 hole hitter as well. The problem is that he is not very good vs RH pitching. However, someone like him, with reverse splits, would be adequate, and not that expensive, or hard to find. You would think that a team like Seattle, seeking a right handed power bat, might be willing to trade a good defensive right fielder, for Viciedo. I don't think that it matters from which side of the plate that outfielder bats. With Martinez in the middle of the lineup, the need for the left handed hitter would be filled. Someone suggested Saunders, and that would be fine, if Seattle were willing to make that trade. Then there is always the international pool of talent. Again, the Sox do not need a big bat in the outfield. The bullpen is a big concern, but with the additions of Babbit, one good left hander, Montas and Cleto the pen could well become an asset, rather than the liability it was in 2014. After all, while they lost Lindstrom and Jones, the Sox did witness the emergence of Putnam and Petricka as solid set up guys. J. Guerra also looks like he's back, and can be counted upon. Of course, they will have to find a closer, but they do have candidates, including the aforementioned Montas and Cleto. That brings up another issue. The Sox record was much worse than the teams overall effort, due to all of the games which the bullpen blew. How many times did Sale and Quintana give the Sox a great chance to win, only to see the pen implode? Fix the pen, and the won/loss column would look dramatically different. So, in summary: Sign V. Martinez? Find a good defensive R.F. with the ability to get on base and provide a little speed. Sign a #3 RH Starter Sign one good LH reliever That should be within the budget of the front office, and could very well put a contender on the field this coming season. Providing management could accomplish those other goals, I'd vote to try to sign Martinez. For me the question is; Would V Mart consider signing with the Sox, not should they offer him a lucrative contract. So, what would I offer him, if it were my decision (not necessarily my money)? I'd offer him what I speculated it would take to sign him; 4 years and $70 Million. Very good summary though your solutions for the pen are a bit farfetched. No idea who Babbit is and Montas will be given every chance to stick as a starter and Cleto can't throw strikes. I was the one who suggested Saunders so if he could be traded for then there's no need to sign a FA OF and the remaining money after signing VMart could be used on the pen and/or innings eater SP . I don't like Aoki , his defense just isn't up to snuff for a slap hitter type.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:48 AM) Someone will give Rasmus $36 million for 3 years because of his youth, ability to play all three outfield spots and "potential." Romo one year at $8-9 million. (If guys like Andrew Miller are getting $20 million plus based on one season...or Gregerson, that's not hard to imagine at all). Anderson's hard to predict...he won't want to sign a long-term deal, so he's going to try to max out a one year deal or a single year with option/s attached. If Jake Peavy's going to get $10 million (plus), then I'll put Anderson at $8.5 million (roughly where Josh Johnson was). That gets you to $29 million. Then LaRoche at $8.5 million for 2 years, for a total of $17 million. (Remember, Gold Glove caliber, etc., that comes with a price even if the White Sox want Abreu to play there the majority of the time). There's $37.5 million. I think Anderson will be lucky to get $5M + incentives based on innings pitched . Rasmus way too much, Romo and LaRoche very speculative as I think both are NL players. But it is probable LaRoche gets $10M+.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:42 AM) but here is a problem with cherry picking a specific part of the advance stats. LaRoche has an for an avg of hitting, 270 hitting avg, 20 hrs a yr, 500 + at bats. remember I am not trying to compare his stats to anyone else, just responding to your answer. Since he is 35 ( only 13 months younger than VMArt) I like to look for things that might indicate his career is trending down . The last 2 years he hasn't hit lefties well which to me is more important than than his career stats. VMart crushed all pitchers but if you can "cherry pick" me a clear signal that he is trending downward, be my guest.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 09:10 PM) 27. Brett Anderson, SP: The best gamble of the 2014 offseason is Anderson, still just 26 years old, still throwing hard from the left side despite myriad injuries. Because he’s coming off back surgery, he’s a bargain worth pursuing, big markets and small, for the significant upside. One of these years, he’s going to throw a full season, and when he does, his teammates will be thrilled they’re wearing the same uniform. from yahoo.com/sports (Jeff Passan, Free Agent Tracker) Of course, that leaves the left-handedness issue again...but if they could somehow trade Danks for Ethier (just an example), that would upgrade LF (although I'm still concerned Ethier is strictly a platoon guy at this stage) and exchange Danks for Anderson, you MIGHT just have something. Sale Quintana Anderson Noesi Bassitt (loser to bullpen) “A lion does not lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.” That is what Brett Anderson said about the fans on twitter . Passan listed him as the 27th best free agent while MLBTR has him at 48. It is a very optimistic rating for someone who can't stay on the mound to save his life.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:54 AM) you are keying on 1 item. that is Dunn. I am not saying nothing of that. what I am saying is how you are replying to those who don't necessarily agree with your opinions. No you are keying on 1 item which is my Dunnitis comment . I listed other factors. . Again I have many posts in the VMart thread I started and not one person has taken offense to anything I have said while disagreeing with many of them. I could be wrong about VMart , I could be right. Time will tell. See this sentence " MOST (meaning most of the people who disagree with me ) would rather see the money spread out."

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:24 AM) you are way off base with this bolded statement. just b/c some doesn't agree with you, don't assume its anything more than looking for other options. I for one is looking for the best move, not the move that throws excessive money around. yeah so this is JR's money, but its a team that I like to follow. there are holes that needs to be filled. so some don't agree with you, does that mean you need to act soooo superior and demeaning b/c you are the only one who thinks he has all the answers! I've seen Dunn's name thrown in with quite a few posts when talking about VMart , not the vast majority of them of course but it is a factor just as the other things I listed are factors also. So it is not demeaning or superior when I see it with my own eyes as evidence. I think I was very fair with my OVERALL assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 01:20 AM) Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season. Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015? We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again. The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess. I'd like to see your breakdown on who you think gets what with those 4. Anderson can't stay healthy, Romo throws an 88 mph FB, LaRoche can't hit lefties and Rasmus defensive metrics are dropping, his K rate is rising and he himself has questioned his love of the game. On the plus side none of them had a career yr ( or even close to it ) so that is a sure signal to snatch them up early because of all the teams who love to sign trending downward free agents for megabucks

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 08:19 PM) Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks. If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two. IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right? I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.