Eminor3rd

No, but I'm saying that I'd need to be convinced by an argument that is IS in disarray before I'd personally want the Sox to go through the process of changing management at this point. I bring this up only because my sense is that most of the energy behind this thread is based on TLR's recent unexplainable tactical decisions/comments about tactics in interviews.

I feel like when you make a managerial change, you enter this whole period of a new staff coming in, building relationships, evaluating current coaching staff, setting new routines, etc. While the upside of that change, ultimately, may be worth it -- there's always risk that it isn't and there's the uncertainty of how much time it takes to gel, etc. At the end of the day, the manager is an easy scapegoat, but unless the clubhouse is in disarray, I just don't think we have much evidence that even dumb stuff like batting Leury third really makes that much of a difference in the W column. I would rather ride with TLR, as long as he can maintain the morale, than roll the dice with another manager and accept the risks of momentum loss and of ending up with someone who is even worse. Because as tactically crazy and personally reprehensible as TLR may be, the managerial situation can certainly be A LOT worse than it is in terms of how the clubhouse is being handled, and in my personal opinion, that's the much larger issue as far as the impact a manager can have. I would not have made the hire in the first place, but now that we're this far in, I think the best move is to keep pressing forward.

Mediocre stretch of ten games? There are injuries but we always knew there would be. It’s April 25th and they’re a game and half back. I don’t like TLR either but you’re going to see this stretch at least a couple more times no matter WHAT the batting order is, even if the team wins it all this year.

I’m past the point of sacrificing time for strategic political bullshit for this crew. For me, they’re riding in together and they’re either going to win or they all gotta go. The time for punting is past; every season is in the window now.

It's April 19th.

Leury PH

Oh me too, I just mean I wouldn't be surprised if Oakland actually really wants him.

I’ll just say that Gavin Sheets exactly the type of player that Oakland reliably turns into a two-time all-star.

Or, Garcia. Garcia, Garcia, Rios -- who was used to acquire Garcia.

Garcia, Garcia, Garcia, Garcia

What a crazy day,

He's a guy

As far as a non-sexy, could be used as a swingman later in season, couldn’t cost too much in a trade because he’s out of options potential choice: Nick Martinez took some serious steps forward last year with SoftBank and the Padres snagged him. I wonder if they wouldn’t rather part with him than Paddack or whatever. Wouldn’t be the worst pickup for an April/May flyer with some upside.

Best you can do when you wait for something to break before addressing it.

So as not to end up like:

This sucks buts it’s hard to make the argument that it’s anyone’s fault, in particular. Until we make some serious advances in injury prevention, this shit just happens a lot to pitchers, especially with elite stuff, around this age.

I'm guessing the Sox are pencilling in significant time for Engel and Sheets out there already. Those guys don't look so bad when they're depth/rest options.

Good move. Might not work out, but good move. Makes sense today.

Jfc that was unreadable. How to turn 400 words into 2500 words.

While you're right that the starters have more consistent baseline talent, it was a stroke of pure luck that the Sox got through the season without substantial injuries to their staff last year, and not much less than pure luck that they got 150 innings and 4+ fWAR out of Rodon. You can't bank on that happening again -- especially with the questions marks with Keuchel's performance and Kopech's ability to handle a full year of a starter's workload. Falling off to Lopez and then... whatever comes after Lopez *shudder* will hurt MUCH more than a couple dead spots in the lineup. Even though a couple dead spots in the lineup do definitely hurt.

Post-hype change of scenery candidates are great as depth, less great when plugged directly into a contending lineup. I’m not sure he’s better than Adam Engel. But it’s good to have more actual outfielders on the roster?

I think you’re spot on that they don’t want a short-term deal, that it would be a 3-5 year deal or nothing. And I imagine they know that they’re in a great position to make it happen. I really just think they already spent their money for this year. The payroll is a new record. I think they already decided they’re okay going into OD like this. The only run gthat would change that, IMO, is moving Kimbrel’s salary.

Again, developing a great bullpen is not the same thing as what the White Sox have been doing. Greg Holland and Joakim Soria were developed internally. Wade Davis was acquired as a second piece in the James Shields trade and was a still a starter at the time — and the Royals even still tried him as a starter for a year before converting him to a reliever. The Royals were adding strength and depth to their rotation, and the strong bullpen followed.

The Brewers and Rays did not "emphasize" relief pitching -- they happened to develop a great deal of it, which is a by-product of developing great pitching in general. The last team to "emphasize" relief pitching the way the Sox have -- by spending a great deal of resources (in both money and players, in our case) acquiring veteran relievers at the peak of their value -- was the Rockies, the consensus laughingstock of the MLB, and it very much did NOT work. And that wasn't surprising, because everyone knows that relief pitcher performance is the most volatile of any position on the diamond, by a lot. I think Vaughn is going to hit well, too. The problem with Vaughn is that he's a first baseman, not a right fielder. Engel is a good RF, but he can't hit well. So every night you have to choose a player who can only play well consistently on one side of the ball. Now, what if you had someone who could do both instead? I would call that putting the team in a much better position to win. I think Hahn has pulled us into an illusory universe where he's chained to having certain players on his roster. His explanation for not acquiring a RF has alluded to needing to find at-bats for Andrew Vaughn and Gavin Sheets. But... neither of those players are right fielders. Any other team, when finding themselves in possession of a logjam of interesting MLB-ready prospects in a single position would TRADE one or more of those players to shore up a position they actually needed. Similarly, not signing a RF because Cespedes and/or Colas might be ready in a year or two is nonsense -- the team also just lost a 4+ fWAR pitching season from Carlos Rodon that it hasn't replaced. If you now have a logjam in RF, why not trade a prospect for a pitcher? Your call for financial prudence is sound, but let's engage in a counter-factual: Actual WS offseason, in 2022-only dollars committed: 1. Leury Garcia ($5.5M) 2. Josh Harrison ($5.5M) 3. Kendall Graveman ($7M) 4. Joe Kelly ($8.5M) 5. Vince Velasquez ($3M) TOTAL: $29.5M What if, instead: 1. Michael Conforto ($25M) 2. Romy Gonzalez (FREE) 3. Danny Mendick (FREE) TOTAL: $25M Now, you can trade Gavin Sheets for a controllable back-end starter. Or Andrew Vaughn for an excellent to elite starter, or an excellent to elite second baseman. If Cespedes/Colas forces the issue, imagine trading one of THEM for a controllable starter or second baseman, maybe even packing two of those players together to go even bigger. Would that team not be in a much better position to win? With Abreu/Eloy/whoever is left from Vaughn/Sheets/Burger rotating in DH/1B/LF to help them all stay healthy and not requiring them to play out of position? With a real full-time RF in the other corner? Now, imagine you gave Rodon the QO instead of exercising Kimbrel's option. Suddenly you have pitching depth, possibly a lot of it! And it didn't cost ANY more money than what they've done instead. Is the upgrade from Romy/Mendick to Leury/Harrison worth the alternative?

This is a lot of straw man arguments. No one is suggesting that the Sox should push all in for short term gains. No one is suggesting that good bullpens aren’t important, we ARE suggesting that top bullpens very rarely seem like they’ll be top bullpens going into the season, and so blowing resources trying to build one (particularly when ignoring bigger needs) is a clearly bad strategy. No one is suggesting anything remotely close to trading for a Dexter Fowler bad contract, lmao. No one ever thought the Edwin Jackson contract was a good idea, even for a moment. This White Sox DID spend a bunch of money, they just didn’t get anything that they needed with it. ”Conforto over Vaughn/Engel does NOT put us in a ‘much better position to win’” is a bizarre statement. I’d love to hear you support that. It’s a dogshit offseason, man. It doesn’t make you a bad fan to admit that, and admitting it doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to root for the team still.