harkness99 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 09:49 AM) The timing of this blown save really freaking sucked. It's caused a lot of people to overreact a bit, which is understandable. But these sort of things happen. Robertson hasn't been elite, but he's been solid .The comparison to Addison Reed is laughable. Ultimately, David Robertson is not anywhere near this team's bigger problems. Addison reed 81% career save David Robertson 81 % career save. That's before his blow last night... so Reed might be higher now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) Addison reed 81% career save David Robertson 81 % career save. That's before his blow last night... so Reed might be higher now. I don't think you get why Reed was traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) Addison reed 81% career save David Robertson 81 % career save. That's before his blow last night... so Reed might be higher now. Why isnt Reed closing games anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 10:23 AM) Why isnt Reed closing games anymore lol... I never said Reed was good.. or that I want him closing games. Some dude said Addison Reed comparison was silly... I'm just pointing out they have the same career save %. I'm not saying Reed is good... I'm saying Robertson may not be a closer worth that kind of money. I was starting to believe in him until last night... but going back for two years now he has way too many blown saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 We lost a game (AGAIN) that we should have won. But, I think the move to bring in Robertson in the 9th was sound. Sale was getting a bit wild and was obviously tiring. Robertson is your closer and hadn't pitched for a long stretch. That is becoming a disturbing norm with this team though. We haven't played good solid ball and we go stretches where our best relief pitchers , specifically Jones and Robertson aren't getting work. I don't think there can be any argument they need to be in meaningful games to stay sharp. DR wasn't real sharpy but the umpiring didn't help nor did some questionable catching moves by Navarro. However, you need to work over those things and DR couldn't do it. I am concerned how DR enters a game and gives up a hit to the first batter seemingly all the time. The lack of some clutch hitting doesn't help either. I think we had like 11 hits and score only three. One a solo homer and the other a two run shot. It is what it is I guess and hopefully we start getting things straightened out. Let's start tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Sale is a future hall of famer in his prime. Ventura should have let him START the inning at the very least. His command started to fade in the 8th inning, but he has earned the right to finish what he started. If he let someone get on base, then pull him, but give him a chance for the shutout. On the bright side, he was throwing more changeups last night than he had all season and he dominated...so hopefully he continues that trend against Detroit on Saturday. As for Robertson, I've never really liked him. He's a slightly above average closer making elite closer money. I'd definitely move him if there is a taker and let Jones move into the closer role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 11:00 AM) Addison reed 81% career save David Robertson 81 % career save. That's before his blow last night... so Reed might be higher now. Robertson was a setup man prior to the 2014 season because the New York Yankees had something of a decent closer. If you don't remember that guy he'll be giving a speech 2 years from now. Robertson spent 5+ full seasons in that role and in that role he gets credit for a BS on a bad day but does not get credit for a save on a good day. His Save %age since becoming a full time closer is 86%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 12:43 AM) welllll.... not so fast. I'm pretty sure there was a similar thread to this one last year right before that series with the Blue Jays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 05:27 PM) Sale is a future hall of famer in his prime. Ventura should have let him START the inning at the very least. His command started to fade in the 8th inning, but he has earned the right to finish what he started. If he let someone get on base, then pull him, but give him a chance for the shutout. On the bright side, he was throwing more changeups last night than he had all season and he dominated...so hopefully he continues that trend against Detroit on Saturday. As for Robertson, I've never really liked him. He's a slightly above average closer making elite closer money. I'd definitely move him if there is a taker and let Jones move into the closer role. I agree. I would also like to add that apparently according to the hidebound modern day "book" of managing you gotta let the closer close even if he's in a bit of trouble. You wouldn't want to hurt his feewings and make him go run and hide in a safe space. As the inning unfolded I thought there was more than a good chance Robertson was going to blow the game and I would have taken my chances on someone else getting that last out. If that failed I'll take the heat but I am so sick of the "book' which often shackles a manager's ability to actually manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (SI1020 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 11:57 AM) I agree. I would also like to add that apparently according to the hidebound modern day "book" of managing you gotta let the closer close even if he's in a bit of trouble. You wouldn't want to hurt his feewings and make him go run and hide in a safe space. As the inning unfolded I thought there was more than a good chance Robertson was going to blow the game and I would have taken my chances on someone else getting that last out. If that failed I'll take the heat but I am so sick of the "book' which often shackles a manager's ability to actually manage. Agreed. I would've liked to have seen Robin bring in Duke once Lind was announced, as it was pretty clear that Robertson had absolutely nothing from the start, but of course Robin has to manage by the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 06:01 PM) Agreed. I would've liked to have seen Robin bring in Duke once Lind was announced, as it was pretty clear that Robertson had absolutely nothing from the start, but of course Robin has to manage by the book. sometimes it seems you can't win for losing and we are losing too much. But, the game has changed and very few starters state UN past 7 innings. It's all good if the bullpen does its job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 10:04 AM) We lost a game (AGAIN) that we should have won. But, I think the move to bring in Robertson in the 9th was sound. Sale was getting a bit wild and was obviously tiring. Robertson is your closer and hadn't pitched for a long stretch. That is becoming a disturbing norm with this team though. We haven't played good solid ball and we go stretches where our best relief pitchers , specifically Jones and Robertson aren't getting work. I don't think there can be any argument they need to be in meaningful games to stay sharp. DR wasn't real sharpy but the umpiring didn't help nor did some questionable catching moves by Navarro. However, you need to work over those things and DR couldn't do it. I am concerned how DR enters a game and gives up a hit to the first batter seemingly all the time. The lack of some clutch hitting doesn't help either. I think we had like 11 hits and score only three. One a solo homer and the other a two run shot. It is what it is I guess and hopefully we start getting things straightened out. Let's start tonight! Given that Robertson hadn't pitched in awhile, all the more reason to give him some work in the blow out games in Anaheim in my opinion so that he wasn't rusty when he was really needed. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 11:46 AM) Robertson was a setup man prior to the 2014 season because the New York Yankees had something of a decent closer. If you don't remember that guy he'll be giving a speech 2 years from now. Robertson spent 5+ full seasons in that role and in that role he gets credit for a BS on a bad day but does not get credit for a save on a good day. His Save %age since becoming a full time closer is 86%. Since he became the full time closer for the Yankees.. 85% save rate. However if you look at Addison Reed he has a similar amount of blown saves as a "non closer" since we are going to now use this as some kind of differentiation. I think Reed is worse.. but my point really is more that Robertson is okay but not top tier.. and not worth that kind of money. I'd like my closer to be 90% plus (which 16 closers in MLB were last year). Edited July 19, 2016 by harkness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 01:30 PM) Since he became the full time closer for the Yankees.. 85% save rate. However if you look at Addison Reed he has a similar amount of blown saves as a "non closer" since we are going to now use this as some kind of differentiation. I think Reed is worse.. but my point really is more that Robertson is okay but not top tier.. and not worth that kind of money. I'd like my closer to be 90% plus (which 16 closers in MLB were last year). I do not disagree with the claim that he's overpaid. The White Sox believed they were a closer away from being a playoff team - in that situation overpaying for a closer could be an acceptable move. The problem isn't that they spent the money on him and overpaid a closer, it's the logic that went into them believing they were a closer away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 12:36 PM) I do not disagree with the claim that he's overpaid. The White Sox believed they were a closer away from being a playoff team - in that situation overpaying for a closer could be an acceptable move. The problem isn't that they spent the money on him and overpaid a closer, it's the logic that went into them believing they were a closer away. I'd agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 We were stupid for getting him work in a blowout game a couple weeks ago, now we're stupid for not getting him work in blowout games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 02:38 PM) Do you see a trend here? The White Sox are always stupid as long as the results aren't good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 01:41 PM) The White Sox are always stupid as long as the results aren't good! Here's a concept. I'll just throw this out there. Tell me what you think How about the organization start operating like a big market franchise, instead of a company softball team, and maybe all the second guessing be dramatically reduced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 12:35 PM) We were stupid for getting him work in a blowout game a couple weeks ago, now we're stupid for not getting him work in blowout games The difference was Robertson hadn't pitched in at least 10 days before he came into the game last night since he missed the Atlanta series and was off during the All Star break. I agree you don't use a closer in a non save situation but these were extenuating circumstances and throwing on the side (and I personally know this) can never replicate what goes on during a game. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (captain54 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) Here's a concept. I'll just throw this out there. Tell me what you think How about the organization start operating like a big market franchise, instead of a company softball team, and maybe all the second guessing be dramatically reduced? Isn't spending $46 million on a closer a big market move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (captain54 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 03:09 PM) Here's a concept. I'll just throw this out there. Tell me what you think How about the organization start operating like a big market franchise, instead of a company softball team, and maybe all the second guessing be dramatically reduced? They are not a big market franchise. They are really a medium market and the Cubs are a big market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I would definitely trade Robertson. I think he's actually really good. I just don't agree with paying relievers as much as he's being paid. I think they could get a good return for him, Jones or Burdi could get similar results, and the $$ could be spent elsewhere. They could get something for Duke as well. Mid market teams that haven't made the playoffs in 8 years shouldn't be paying closers $11 million per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FT35 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 01:20 PM) Isn't spending $46 million on a closer a big market move? I'm not sure a team's market determines whether $46M is spent on a closer. Isn't it more about the competitive state of that team or who is capable on their roster (no matter what their salary is)? For example...Philly is one of the larger markets but they do not have a $46M closer because they aren't that good. Many big market teams do have an expensive closer because their team warrants one. But many large market teams don't--K-Rod is $3.5M in Detroit, Harris is 514K for Houston, Mauer is the minimum in SD. Let's not forget everybody's favorite Cubs--$544K for Rondon. Market may be an independent variable to closer cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 02:48 PM) I'm not sure a team's market determines whether $46M is spent on a closer. Isn't it more about the competitive state of that team or who is capable on their roster (no matter what their salary is)? For example...Philly is one of the larger markets but they do not have a $46M closer because they aren't that good. Many big market teams do have an expensive closer because their team warrants one. But many large market teams don't--K-Rod is $3.5M in Detroit, Harris is 514K for Houston, Mauer is the minimum in SD. Let's not forget everybody's favorite Cubs--$544K for Rondon. Market may be an independent variable to closer cost. They had one until halfway through last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 11:41 AM) The White Sox are always stupid as long as the results aren't good! Or to put it another way. We have many people here who post, so different people have different opinions. One will say the Sox are stupid for letting him pitch in a blowout game and another will say the Sox are stupid for not letting him pitch in a blowout game. Not really any trend unless you can find the same person saying both things. The only trend is we have people who think differently. Not really a shocker since we are all thinking and emotional beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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