Dave Kaplan reports Kenny Williams holding back Rick Hahn

[Dick Allen]

so if they would be less than ecstatic to lose the WS, what would they be to have the fourth-worst record in baseball from 2013-2016?

You really think the White Sox are happy with where they are at?

 

And could you imagine if they were jumping up and down with joy if the made the WS and lost, how that would go over?

 

Would you be happy if they made the WS and lost?

Edited August 23, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Hatchetman]

I would think one the worst organizations in baseball would be ecstatic to make it to the World Series.

[Dick Allen]

I would think one the worst organizations in baseball would be ecstatic to make it to the World Series.

Not if they lost. Regardless of what you want to say about the White Sox FO personnel acumen, they really don't like to lose, even if it swells the bank account.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think he has more of a say. He is the one doing most of the communication with other GMs, agents. How much more remains to be seen. It has been reported how his ideas have been rejected, but are they every idea? I doubt it. I'd venture to guess the Sox have done something the last few years that Hahn really wanted and KW and JR weren't so sure.

 

 

I disagree with part of this. raBBit has stated that Melky was a Kenny Williams decision. That offseason is the one that looks really bad in hindsight. They weren't ready to give up 2 draft picks that offseason and pay a premium for a closer.

[Dick Allen]

I disagree with part of this. raBBit has stated that Melky was a Kenny Williams decision. That offseason is the one that looks really bad in hindsight. They weren't ready to give up 2 draft picks that offseason and pay a premium for a closer.

Rick Hahn was very popular here when all those moves were made. When they failed, they became KW moves. In fact, the one poster who rips all these moves the most, and tells you what should have happened, went one farther. He loved all these moves so much, he said Hahn and KW would be kings of Chicago if they could then complete their offseason and land Matt Kemp.

 

Hahn does still enjoy back up QB status with many. But he does hold some responsibility for all these moves. If he has nothing to do with it but go to the media and explain the reasoning for making them, he should have done the honorable thing and quit his job.

[Thad Bosley]

Seriously, f*** this organization. Completely ignore the failures of the offense, the fact that we have don't have a 5th starter, or the compete lack of depth everywhere. Yup, it was only bullpen injuries that let us down this year. Glas to hear they'll be "come out swinging", we're clearly just a piece or two away from being perennial contenders.

It's just gotten to the point where it's a big eye roll whenever any one of the Big Three - Reinsdorf, Williams, or Hahn - says anything regarding the state of the team or what their plans and intentions are going forward. The words ring hollow when you hear things like the typical "Oh, Jerry Reinsdorf wants to win so badly", and then you see something like the dumpster dive moves from last offseason. The actions don't seem to match the words.

 

Or the recent declaration from Reinsdorf saying "Don't worry - Kenny and Rick are in lockstep". That's not really comforting, Jerry. One would presume they've been in "lockstep" for their past 15 years of working together, and what has that gotten us? Just two trips to the postseason during that time. I don't think it's "lockstep" that is needed at this point.

 

Or Williams with his "Don't worry - we have a three year plan" baloney from last year to explain last season's disaster. Where did all of the talk about that go?

 

Or Hahn with his "We want to maximize the window of opportunity with the core" line, and then the dumpster dive moves from the offseason with the James Shields chaser earlier this summer. Again, the words not squaring up with the actions one iota.

 

So a big ho-hum to the noise coming out of the offices over at 35th and Shields. We know there will probably not be any changes in key personnel over there anytime soon, so no hope on the horizon for a fresh new vision and approach. I guess the only thing to do is wait and see yet again what transpires in the offseason, and hope that something looking like the comet that passed by in 2005 magically shows up again.

[Jake]

I would rather hold to account the person who agreed to the Samardzija trade than the person who chose to sign Melky. Who gives a s*** about the Melky signing? The worst case is that we wouldn't have spent the money or that we would have spent it on someone worse. The way the >$10M/year FA signings have been lately around MLB tells me that was a near-harmless move. Having Melky on the team has made us more ready to win than most alternatives.

 

But Samardzija only worked in theory if the team was good that year, which seemed unlikely at the time to me and some others. Even if you were optimistic, it was still a risky move since you were betting on all the things that can go wrong in a single season. Worse, of course, was that the player acquired wasn't even very good. The good Samardzija, who lives in many Chicagoans' imaginations and memories, wouldn't have made the team a winner but would have at least provided some cover for the logic of the move itself. Instead we traded at least one MLB regular who was cheap and under control for a long time (along with a potential backup C and solid starting pitching depth) for a guy who pitched like ass for a year and left us with just a draft pick, though we can at least be thankful for that.

[Lip Man 1]

The fans of the team that lost the world series. Because they knew during game 1, they had a better chance at winning a championship than 28 other teams.

 

Not the mention the attendance boost teams get when they go deep into the playoffs.

 

I'll taking making the playoffs and everything that goes with it (being in contention and playing meaningful games late in the season, the fun of watching my team play in October while everyone else is at home) vs the past few crap seasons we've had with very little to look forward to any year.

 

 

VERY well said.

 

Lip

[Hatchetman]

I'd really really like to win a 10K race for my age group. I mean nobody wants to win like me.

 

Do I run 5-6 times/week, 30+ miles/week? No

Do I follow a strict training protocol? No

Have I hired a trainer to work with me? No

Do I follow a strict diet so that I would lose the excess 10-20 lbs I have? No

Do I have the latest technology that would allow me to evaluate distance, split times, heart rate, pace, etc.? No

 

But let me tell you. there is NOBODY who wants to win a 10K like me.

[oldsox]

I would rather hold to account the person who agreed to the Samardzija trade than the person who chose to sign Melky. Who gives a s*** about the Melky signing? The worst case is that we wouldn't have spent the money or that we would have spent it on someone worse. The way the >$10M/year FA signings have been lately around MLB tells me that was a near-harmless move. Having Melky on the team has made us more ready to win than most alternatives.

 

But Samardzija only worked in theory if the team was good that year, which seemed unlikely at the time to me and some others. Even if you were optimistic, it was still a risky move since you were betting on all the things that can go wrong in a single season. Worse, of course, was that the player acquired wasn't even very good. The good Samardzija, who lives in many Chicagoans' imaginations and memories, wouldn't have made the team a winner but would have at least provided some cover for the logic of the move itself. Instead we traded at least one MLB regular who was cheap and under control for a long time (along with a potential backup C and solid starting pitching depth) for a guy who pitched like ass for a year and left us with just a draft pick, though we can at least be thankful for that.

Don't forget we got Mike Ynoa, because Hahn held out for him.

[Kyyle23]

I'd really really like to win a 10K race for my age group. I mean nobody wants to win like me.

 

Do I run 5-6 times/week, 30+ miles/week? No

Do I follow a strict training protocol? No

Have I hired a trainer to work with me? No

Do I follow a strict diet so that I would lose the excess 10-20 lbs I have? No

Do I have the latest technology that would allow me to evaluate distance, split times, heart rate, pace, etc.? No

 

But let me tell you. there is NOBODY who wants to win a 10K like me.

 

The Sox have certainly fallen short, but this is a terrible comparison

[Lip Man 1]

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-white-so...get-it-together

 

This is reassuring.

 

KW: We'll get it together.

 

So basically, the injuries to Petricka and Putnam were enough to blow up the entire season...that's about as lame as Hawk saying the lack of offdays early burned out Albers and Robertson.

 

Nice column in reply to Kenny:

 

 

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/08/23/baf...-the-white-sox/

 

Mark

[Dick Allen]

KW did mention minor league staffs, which is exactly the same thing Stone mentioned on the Score a few weeks ago. I would imagine some minor league staff members get replaced. How high up the chain is anyone's guess.

 

One thing we did find out this year, the 2015 team struggles don't appear to be Mark Parent's fault.

[tray]

My guess is that Ventura will not return as Manager. Meanwhile, Hahn and Williams will continue to revamp the Scouting and player evaluation personnel after acknowledging how ineffective they have been. They will also seek to rework the roster by adding hitters if they can find them and try to bolster the terrible bullpen.

No matter who is in charge, that is going to be a tall order. Too many players have under-performed (Frazier, Robertson, Avila, Shields, Fulmer) , diminished their trade value, and hampered management's ability to trade them.

 

As far as the Sox being for sale, everything is for sale at the right price. Kaplan created a rumor out of idle conversation that he instigated or perhaps out of whole cloth. I doubt the Reinsdorf family would sell their interest in the White Sox for several reasons. One of them is the interconnection with their ownership interest in the Chicago Bulls and their various media Contracts and promotional ties that they share with the Bulls that provide advantages and allow them to maintain greater leverage. Reinsdorf has a couple of sons who might step in if he retires, like old man Joe Ricketts children did or like the continuity in the Yankees/Steinbrenner organization.

Edited August 23, 2016 by miracleon35th

[southsider2k5]

IMO, or my guess is that Ventura will not return as Manager. Meanwhile, Hahn and Williams will continue to revamp the Scouting and player evaluation personnel they have after acknowledging how ineffective they have been. They will also seek to reqork the roster by adding hitters if they can fond them and trying to bolster the terrible bullpen.

No matter who is in charge, that is going to be a tall order. Too many players have under-performed (Frazier, Robertson, Avila, Shields, Fulmer) , diminished their trade value, and hampered management's ability to trade them.

 

As far as the Sox being for sale, everything is for sale at the right price. Kaplan created a rumor out of idle conversation that he instigated or perhaps out of whole cloth. I doubt the Reinsdorf family would sell their interest in the White Sox for several reasons. One of them is the interconnection with their ownership interest in the Chicago Bulls and their various media Contracts and promotional ties that they share or allow them to maintain greater leverage. Reinsdorf has a couple of sons who might step in if he retires, like old man Joe Ricketts children did or like the continuity in the Yankees/Steinbrenner organization.

 

 

What "interconnection" is there in the ownership of the Bulls and Sox? They are set up as two completely separate corporate entities, and do business as such.

[Dick Allen]

IMO, or my guess is that Ventura will not return as Manager. Meanwhile, Hahn and Williams will continue to revamp the Scouting and player evaluation personnel they have after acknowledging how ineffective they have been. They will also seek to reqork the roster by adding hitters if they can fond them and trying to bolster the terrible bullpen.

No matter who is in charge, that is going to be a tall order. Too many players have under-performed (Frazier, Robertson, Avila, Shields, Fulmer) , diminished their trade value, and hampered management's ability to trade them.

 

As far as the Sox being for sale, everything is for sale at the right price. Kaplan created a rumor out of idle conversation that he instigated or perhaps out of whole cloth. I doubt the Reinsdorf family would sell their interest in the White Sox for several reasons. One of them is the interconnection with their ownership interest in the Chicago Bulls and their various media Contracts and promotional ties that they share or allow them to maintain greater leverage. Reinsdorf has a couple of sons who might step in if he retires, like old man Joe Ricketts children did or like the continuity in the Yankees/Steinbrenner organization.

Here's something I read the other day. For as disappointing Frazier has been, and the supposed future star Trayce Thompson is, Trayce has a 0.4 WAR in 80 games this year. Apparently, his stellar defense has not been so stellar. I was reading where he routes are awful. Frazier has a 1.1 War in about 35 more games.

[Y2Jimmy0]

My guess is that Ventura will not return as Manager. Meanwhile, Hahn and Williams will continue to revamp the Scouting and player evaluation personnel after acknowledging how ineffective they have been. They will also seek to rework the roster by adding hitters if they can find them and try to bolster the terrible bullpen.

No matter who is in charge, that is going to be a tall order. Too many players have under-performed (Frazier, Robertson, Avila, Shields, Fulmer) , diminished their trade value, and hampered management's ability to trade them.

 

As far as the Sox being for sale, everything is for sale at the right price. Kaplan created a rumor out of idle conversation that he instigated or perhaps out of whole cloth. I doubt the Reinsdorf family would sell their interest in the White Sox for several reasons. One of them is the interconnection with their ownership interest in the Chicago Bulls and their various media Contracts and promotional ties that they share with the Bulls that provide advantages and allow them to maintain greater leverage. Reinsdorf has a couple of sons who might step in if he retires, like old man Joe Ricketts children did or like the continuity in the Yankees/Steinbrenner organization.

 

 

Kaplan never said the Sox would be for sale. Bernstein did. Kaplan just said there was a rift between Hahn/KW. And the Sox responded immediately. Which they never do about anything.

[Dick Allen]

Kaplan never said the Sox would be for sale. Bernstein did. Kaplan just said there was a rift between Hahn/KW. And the Sox responded immediately. Which they never do about anything.

And from JR's talk with Kaplan, it appears the team is not going to be sold any time soon, and if there is a rift between KW/RH, it isn't big enough that they won't be together this next offseason.

[bmags]

Here's something I read the other day. For as disappointing Frazier has been, and the supposed future star Trayce Thompson is, Trayce has a 0.4 WAR in 80 games this year. Apparently, his stellar defense has not been so stellar. I was reading where he routes are awful. Frazier has a 1.1 War in about 35 more games.

 

Still not thrilled with it. We still lost the opportunity to trade thompson for an actual upgrade. As it stands we'd be better off with the original expectation of David Freese (recently signed extension) than having spent 3 spects on Frazier. The pro scouting just has to get better for the sox.

 

In this decade we've seen 2 of the the worst offensive seasons ever (Dunn/Laroche), a pitcher that led the league in runs allowed and shields historically awful season - all from acquired players with major league experience.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Semien has done pretty well.

Bassitt hurt

Phegley hurt

Ravelo minor league fodder

Trayce hurt

Montas hurt

Micah minor league fodder

 

 

Of the 2 KW-esque trades, its not like they destroyed the White Sox. You do have to give up something to get something, but Semien is really the only one who would help right now and moving forward, would you rather have him at SS or Anderson? I'm pretty sure the Sox saw Semien as a 3B. Maybe if the trades weren't made, that is where he is right now. Any way, the team wouldn't really be any better now or really in future if they had passed on making these deals.

[bmags]

Semien has done pretty well.

Bassitt hurt

Phegley hurt

Ravelo minor league fodder

Trayce hurt

Montas hurt

Micah minor league fodder

 

 

Of the 2 KW-esque trades, its not like they destroyed the White Sox. You do have to give up something to get something, but Semien is really the only one who would help right now and moving forward, would you rather have him at SS or Anderson? I'm pretty sure the Sox saw Semien as a 3B. Maybe if the trades weren't made, that is where he is right now. Any way, the team wouldn't really be any better now or really in future if they had passed on making these deals.

 

I think looking at it like that is shortsighted. When we were good at pro scouting we flipped Mike Morse, Miguel Olivo and Jeremy Reed for Freddie Garcia. None of them did that well and it didn't hurt the white sox, but they had trade value and Garcia was really good. Now we trade 3 not very good players for 1 not very good player. Trading thompson for Frazier cost us the opportunity to trade him for someone useful OR keep him. We know what we got from Frazier, a replaceable year on a bad team.

 

You do have to give up something to get something, but Semien is really the only one who would help right now and moving forward, would you rather have him at SS or Anderson? I'm pretty sure the Sox saw Semien as a 3B. Maybe if the trades weren't made, that is where he is right now. Any way, the team wouldn

 

The team wouldn't be any better if it was better at evaluating talent? I disagree. We've paid over $100 million in contracts and traded over 10 prospects since 2015 and received very little value from it. Dan Jennings is probably our best acquisition through trade and Melky our best FA acquisition. The rest got us probably negative value.

[Jake]

I still think the Frazier deal was a good one in that it made sense at the time and hasn't been an unmitigated failure at this point. It's fully within the realm of possibility that he contributes to a winning Sox team next year and/or gets traded for more than we gave up for him next year.

[GreenSox]

Of the 2 KW-esque trades, its not like they destroyed the White Sox. You do have to give up something to get something,

But the Sox got nothing.

That's the big problem.

Whoever scouted Frazier and Samardzija as elite talents, and Shields as a capable mid rotation guy simply cannot evaluate talent and do not belong anywhere near a professional baseball team.

It's one thing to say prospects didn't work out - most don't - but when the "proven veterans" especially the ones that are worshiped as elite, are consistently average or below, there is a major problem.

Were these veterans even seriously scouted?

Did anyone actually look at their stats?

 

And secondarily, indeed, I don't believe that the Sox FO is particularly capable in negotiating trades. On paper, they usually overpay. When the Dodgers preferred the 3 Sox prospects to Frazier, that should have sent a clear signal to the Sox* (if they had any self-awareness) that he was on the wrong side of this transaction.

*Rabbitt is probably right Williams is making all of these inane moves, but, whoever is doing it, is just inept.

Edited August 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

But the Sox got nothing.

That's the big problem.

Whoever scouted Frazier and Samardzija as elite talents, and Shields as a capable mid rotation guy simply cannot evaluate talent and do not belong anywhere near a professional baseball team.

It's one thing to say prospects didn't work out - most don't - but when the "proven veterans" especially the ones that are worshiped as elite, are consistently average or below, there is a major problem.

Were these veterans even seriously scouted?

Did anyone actually look at their stats?

 

The irony is of course that after Samardjiza's worst season ever, he got a huge contract, and has been pretty good this year. Of course if you looked at his stats, you would know that his FIP last year with 3/4 of a full run better than his ERA, meaning that statistically he wasn't a bad pitcher, just extremely unlucky. This year his ERA is very close to his FIP, and there you go.

[caulfield12]

The irony is of course that after Samardjiza's worst season ever, he got a huge contract, and has been pretty good this year. Of course if you looked at his stats, you would know that his FIP last year with 3/4 of a full run better than his ERA, meaning that statistically he wasn't a bad pitcher, just extremely unlucky. This year his ERA is very close to his FIP, and there you go.

 

An ERA well into the 4's is good in SF?

 

Cueto's been much better. Of course, many local/regional fans bought into this idea Shark's a Cy Young guy too, but the results have never measured up to the hype.