Cafardo: Cardinals interested in Avi

[hi8is]

Let's be serious. The market will not give him Bryce Harper type dollars yet (this may change in a year or two if he's not locked up long term)

 

I really think an offer of 8/120 is about FMV at this point and I think he may take it for long term stability.

 

Avi is a future HOFer and I'd hate to see him enter Cooperstown representing another team besides the White Sox.

At least someone's being serious around here... finally.

[Lip Man 1]

Now that's a great post. All the ridiculously bad things our front office has done and people give the front office the benefit of the doubt all the time. Avi is despised by many and they'll never get over it til he does this for 3 seasons and by then they'll say he's old and to dump him.

 

You have to give them the benefit of the doubt be it fair or unfair because frankly they aren't going anyplace until ownership changes.

 

So exactly what are fans supposed to do?

 

Regarding Avi, to me, a half season of genuine excellence doesn't make up yet or erase the uncertainty of two and a half seasons of being out of shape, being a butcher in the outfield and not having a lot of good baseball instincts. I hope he can keep it going. If he can play well (not insanely well) next season I'll be converted...but not yet I'm afraid.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Lip Man 1

[chitownsportsfan]

I wouldn't trade him at this point. He's in his prime and according to ZIPS (and more) he's now basically a 2 WAR player. He can play RF until he gets FA 3 years from now then see where the Sox are at in the rebuild.

Edited June 19, 2017 by chitownsportsfan

[greg775]

You have to give them the benefit of the doubt be it fair or unfair because frankly they aren't going anyplace until ownership changes.

 

So exactly what are fans supposed to do?

 

Regarding Avi, to me, a half season of genuine excellence doesn't make up yet or erase the uncertainty of two and a half seasons of being out of shape, being a butcher in the outfield and not having a lot of good baseball instincts. I hope he can keep it going. If he can play well (not insanely well) next season I'll be converted...but not yet I'm afraid.

Hey Lipman, What's the word on Avi the personality? is he a gamer or a loafer? You mentioned his being out of shape for a couple seasons and that got me to wondering if he's not a hard worker. I always thought Tank was the loafer and Avi worked hard and hustled but I have no inside knowledge as you do.

[Quin]

Avi may be the hardest worker on the team.

[KnightsOnMintSt]

I think you keep Avi at this point. I am always of the mindset that anyone could be traded for the right deal. I dont think we get the right deal for Avi right now just because of the small sample size. But everyone knows the White Sox need bats, and to get this kind of production from Avi, it really fills two needs that we have.

[FT35]

What we know about Avi's time here:

 

1. He was acquired in the Peavy to Boston deal with the expectation that he would turn into the player he is right now.

2. In his initial season with us, he showed why he was a highly-touted player in the Detroit system--he hit well for us down the stretch.

3. He got off to a very promising start in his first full season and suffered a pretty bad injury in Colorado--a series where he was really raking.

4. Coming off the injury, he was slow to recover the offensive potential he exhibited before the injury.

5. Things got so bad for him that there were many times where he looked over-matched at the plate AND in the field--as if he did not belong in the major leagues.

6. His talent came in and out--for moments, he would flash his ability to hit plus change-ups with ease and he would excite us with an occasional 2-HR game.

7. The good was very inconsistent and short-lived--leading most to write him off as a bust and someone who was never the same player after his injury.

8. The Sox shocked us all when they resigned him for this season--we all thought he was a big reason why we were bad.

9. He got off to a hot start this season and everyone wrote it off as a fluke.

10. That hot start has only gotten hotter and now most of is are wondering if it's still a fluke because the days were so long ago when he was a very promising young talent.

 

SO...I would hesitate to write him off to a good start...simply because he showed this type of promise coming up--and has shown his ability to be a nice offensive weapon over longer stretches of time IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES. So I guess it's just up to us to see him as the player he showed promise to be a few years ago, or see him as the player who is still struggling after a big injury to discover what made him promising.

 

Chances are he's not this good, and he's not AS bad as he was there on Robin's teams. But if he keeps it up through this season, he sort of reminds me of a Marcell Ozuna type path. If you take the good with the bad, you end up somewhere in the middle. That would put him in the .270-.285/20-25/75-80/75-80/handful of steals category. For outfielders, that production compares to Ozuna and Stephen Piscotty--both 26-years old. Neither player is a super star, but both have demonstrated that they can produce at a certain level for an entire season--showing susceptibility to prolong slumps, but also the ability to carry a team for equal stretches of time. There's value there--both to us and to others. The Sox just need to determine if they want to roll the dice on an extension that would keep him here under the hope that "good-Avi" is here to stay, or cash in on the success he's had this year and move him. Given the state of our system's OF depth, I would think they are leaning towards rolling the dice on keeping him.

[steveno89]

What we know about Avi's time here:

 

1. He was acquired in the Peavy to Boston deal with the expectation that he would turn into the player he is right now.

2. In his initial season with us, he showed why he was a highly-touted player in the Detroit system--he hit well for us down the stretch.

3. He got off to a very promising start in his first full season and suffered a pretty bad injury in Colorado--a series where he was really raking.

4. Coming off the injury, he was slow to recover the offensive potential he exhibited before the injury.

5. Things got so bad for him that there were many times where he looked over-matched at the plate AND in the field--as if he did not belong in the major leagues.

6. His talent came in and out--for moments, he would flash his ability to hit plus change-ups with ease and he would excite us with an occasional 2-HR game.

7. The good was very inconsistent and short-lived--leading most to write him off as a bust and someone who was never the same player after his injury.

8. The Sox shocked us all when they resigned him for this season--we all thought he was a big reason why we were bad.

9. He got off to a hot start this season and everyone wrote it off as a fluke.

10. That hot start has only gotten hotter and now most of is are wondering if it's still a fluke because the days were so long ago when he was a very promising young talent.

 

SO...I would hesitate to write him off to a good start...simply because he showed this type of promise coming up--and has shown his ability to be a nice offensive weapon over longer stretches of time IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES. So I guess it's just up to us to see him as the player he showed promise to be a few years ago, or see him as the player who is still struggling after a big injury to discover what made him promising.

 

Chances are he's not this good, and he's not AS bad as he was there on Robin's teams. But if he keeps it up through this season, he sort of reminds me of a Marcell Ozuna type path. If you take the good with the bad, you end up somewhere in the middle. That would put him in the .270-.285/20-25/75-80/75-80/handful of steals category. For outfielders, that production compares to Ozuna and Stephen Piscotty--both 26-years old. Neither player is a super star, but both have demonstrated that they can produce at a certain level for an entire season--showing susceptibility to prolong slumps, but also the ability to carry a team for equal stretches of time. There's value there--both to us and to others. The Sox just need to determine if they want to roll the dice on an extension that would keep him here under the hope that "good-Avi" is here to stay, or cash in on the success he's had this year and move him. Given the state of our system's OF depth, I would think they are leaning towards rolling the dice on keeping him.

 

Avi is probably pretty low on the Sox list of priorities to trade right now. He's young enough to stick around through a rebuild and possibly be a piece for the future.

 

I do not think he is as good as he has played, but I also think he is in better shape and has improved. Unless the trade offers were strong I would not move him.

[Bob Sacamano]

Avi is probably pretty low on the Sox list of priorities to trade right now. He's young enough to stick around through a rebuild and possibly be a piece for the future.

I do not think he is as good as he has played, but I also think he is in better shape and has improved. Unless the trade offers were strong I would not move him.

 

The only reason I'm so open to dealing him is his 2 years of control. Like I said in a different Avi thread, wait at the very least a full year to maybe extend him. Ideally, wait a few months into next season and if he doesn't want to sign, trade him in next summer. Unless of course, a team wants to give you a package based on the value of his current season in hope that this is what he is now.

[southsider2k5]

Hey Lipman, What's the word on Avi the personality? is he a gamer or a loafer? You mentioned his being out of shape for a couple seasons and that got me to wondering if he's not a hard worker. I always thought Tank was the loafer and Avi worked hard and hustled but I have no inside knowledge as you do.

 

Have you not paid attention like his entire career?

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

What we know about Avi's time here:

 

1. He was acquired in the Peavy to Boston deal with the expectation that he would turn into the player he is right now.

2. In his initial season with us, he showed why he was a highly-touted player in the Detroit system--he hit well for us down the stretch.

3. He got off to a very promising start in his first full season and suffered a pretty bad injury in Colorado--a series where he was really raking.

4. Coming off the injury, he was slow to recover the offensive potential he exhibited before the injury.

5. Things got so bad for him that there were many times where he looked over-matched at the plate AND in the field--as if he did not belong in the major leagues.

6. His talent came in and out--for moments, he would flash his ability to hit plus change-ups with ease and he would excite us with an occasional 2-HR game.

7. The good was very inconsistent and short-lived--leading most to write him off as a bust and someone who was never the same player after his injury.

8. The Sox shocked us all when they resigned him for this season--we all thought he was a big reason why we were bad.

9. He got off to a hot start this season and everyone wrote it off as a fluke.

10. That hot start has only gotten hotter and now most of is are wondering if it's still a fluke because the days were so long ago when he was a very promising young talent.

Avi's "hot start" began last August 1. I don't have the stats available but I know they're out there. So that's almost a full year of a young player figuring things out. After suffering through his struggles, you'd have to be blown away by any offer, as far as I'm concerned.

[FT35]

Avi's "hot start" began last August 1. I don't have the stats available but I know they're out there. So that's almost a full year of a young player figuring things out. After suffering through his struggles, you'd have to be blown away by any offer, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I think you're right. It seems as if he is well-liked within the organization. I think the fact that he got the extension that he did for this year (despite being as bad as he was) says a lot about how the team feels about him. It would take a great offer from a team who is asking the same question as we are--is this version Avi here to stay?

[caulfield12]

We're seriously underrating Ozuna...there were a lot of Rodon for Ozuna rumors out there in the last 18 months, in terms of Marlins' asking price. They weren't willing to sell low on him coming into 2016. Plus, he plays CF.

[striker]

I'd love Carson Kelly and Flaghtery

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

You like Portillos? Venmo me the cost of a big beef, dipped, with hot peppers.

 

He never took the offer. Anyone else want this offer for Avi hitting .300 by the end of the year?

[oldsox]

Are you over or under?

[iamshack]

Are you over or under?

He's under.

[southsider2k5]

He never took the offer. Anyone else want this offer for Avi hitting .300 by the end of the year?

 

If he hits something like .260 for the rest of the season, he will end under .300.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

If he hits something like .260 for the rest of the season, he will end under .300.

 

Sign me up.

[iamshack]

Sign me up.

Ok, Joe...I'll bite.

 

What are we betting again?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

You have to give them the benefit of the doubt be it fair or unfair because frankly they aren't going anyplace until ownership changes.

 

So exactly what are fans supposed to do?

 

Regarding Avi, to me, a half season of genuine excellence doesn't make up yet or erase the uncertainty of two and a half seasons of being out of shape, being a butcher in the outfield and not having a lot of good baseball instincts. I hope he can keep it going. If he can play well (not insanely well) next season I'll be converted...but not yet I'm afraid.

Not sure I'd say Avi was out of shape . He tore his labrum and came back rather quickly. Now all reports we have heard say he worked very hard to come back ahead of schedule. Let's think about how that happens.

 

I would have to surmise that the key was strengthening the shoulder. How does one do that ? Most likely a lot of it is weight lifting. It's likely he strengthened that shoulder , but possibly bulked up too much through his upper body perhaps neglecting flexibility. He ended up losing mobility in the outfield and in his swing . I 'd say he was muscle bound more than out of shape.

 

Once he lost the weight in his upper body he loosened up his swing and improved his speed and agility. Now granted we have also heard he improved his diet as he matured so yes, he was probably carrying some excess fat too.

 

In conclusion it's possible the post injury Avi wanted to feel less vulnerable to injury and stronger so ate and bulked up to achieve that. The weight loss was just getting him back to pre injury conditioning.

Edited June 20, 2017 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[greg775]

Have you not paid attention like his entire career?

Lip said he was grossly out of shape, hence my question. I had thought I read he was a hard worker but that thrust that into question.

[harfman77]

I would sure listen on offers on Avi, but you need to get a return equal to what his production is now and that is probably going to be hard to get.

 

You certainly don't want to sell low if this is the new normal for Avi. He would not be the first guy to really come into his own at his age 26 season, given his track record of injuries it is understandable that his development may have been stifled.

 

If you end up with Avi reverting back to what he was before, theres some risk there, but you aren't really out anything if that is what you are getting back in value in a trade. If this Avi is for real, you are talking about a MVP level player which would be really difficult to get back in any trade a prospect that will develop into that type of player. The risk is much greater to the team in that aspect.

[steveno89]

I would sure listen on offers on Avi, but you need to get a return equal to what his production is now and that is probably going to be hard to get.

 

You certainly don't want to sell low if this is the new normal for Avi. He would not be the first guy to really come into his own at his age 26 season, given his track record of injuries it is understandable that his development may have been stifled.

 

If you end up with Avi reverting back to what he was before, theres some risk there, but you aren't really out anything if that is what you are getting back in value in a trade. If this Avi is for real, you are talking about a MVP level player which would be really difficult to get back in any trade a prospect that will develop into that type of player. The risk is much greater to the team in that aspect.

 

He is tough to value for exactly the reasons you mention. The track record of this production is not long enough for teams to really feel comfortable in offering a big package, but the Sox would need good reason to move him.

 

I'd listen in on offers, but I would bet against him getting traded.

[Bob Sacamano]

Imagine that scenario where a team actually pays up for him. A guy we would have given up on if we tried to go for it this year actually brings back something great. Would be a fantastic surprise.