Blow it the F Up

[HOFHurt35]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I have been for shitcanning Hahn since 2015. Took a lot of s%*# here for being consistent throughout, even after his "executive of the "year"" bullshit. Same with "120 Games a Year Elite" Grandal's pathetic deal.

That said, Hinch is a much better manager than either Tony or Pedro, and 2021 and beyond could have turned out much better with him in place.

Question for you and Tony - I believe we all feel Pedro and Ricky had minimal input in roster construction. What do you feel Tony's role was in terms of acquisitions and trades? I contend a lot. Doesn't absolve Hahn for all the s%*# before and after, but Tony only exacerbated the bad decisions during his 2 years.

The Sox are not failing because of whatever hypothetical LaRussa motivated roster moves were made. 

The Sox are failing because the guys who were suppose to be stars just aren't cutting it.  That simple.  Then add continues terrible drafting and minor league development by a front office that goes beyond Hahn's tenure as GM,  there is basically a zero talent pipeline to help supplement the failed current roster core and to be able to extend any sort of successful continuity.

I laugh at the idea that Reinsdorf will allow yet another rebuild to take place under the leadership of Hahn and Williams.  Good luck finding the jumpstart trade pieces on this roster like those of Sale, Quintana, and Eaton.   Or better said, good luck finding any team willing to give their farm up on any trades these days.  Those days are over.  You gotta be able to draft and develop, and good luck again with Hahn and Williams doing that. 

[Lip Man 1]

44 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

The Sox are not failing because of whatever hypothetical LaRussa motivated roster moves were made. 

The Sox are failing because the guys who were suppose to be stars just aren't cutting it.  That simple.  Then add continues terrible drafting and minor league development by a front office that goes beyond Hahn's tenure as GM,  there is basically a zero talent pipeline to help supplement the failed current roster core and to be able to extend any sort of successful continuity.

I laugh at the idea that Reinsdorf will allow yet another rebuild to take place under the leadership of Hahn and Williams.  Good luck finding the jumpstart trade pieces on this roster like those of Sale, Quintana, and Eaton.   Or better said, good luck finding any team willing to give their farm up on any trades these days.  Those days are over.  You gotta be able to draft and develop, and good luck again with Hahn and Williams doing that. 

It's a combination of both. You are absolutely correct about the "core" players but it is also true that TLR wanted Garcia and Kelly. 

[Chicago White Sox]

39 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

The Sox are not failing because of whatever hypothetical LaRussa motivated roster moves were made. 

The Sox are failing because the guys who were suppose to be stars just aren't cutting it.  That simple.  Then add continues terrible drafting and minor league development by a front office that goes beyond Hahn's tenure as GM,  there is basically a zero talent pipeline to help supplement the failed current roster core and to be able to extend any sort of successful continuity.

I laugh at the idea that Reinsdorf will allow yet another rebuild to take place under the leadership of Hahn and Williams.  Good luck finding the jumpstart trade pieces on this roster like those of Sale, Quintana, and Eaton.   Or better said, good luck finding any team willing to give their farm up on any trades these days.  Those days are over.  You gotta be able to draft and develop, and good luck again with Hahn and Williams doing that. 

I mean, theoretically Robert should more valuable any of those pieces.  Cease has plenty of value.  Unfortunately, it dries up very quickly after those two.  And Hahn isn’t the guy who will optimize the value of those players when trading them.  But a quality GM would get plenty for them IMO.

That being said, fully agree this comes down to player development and it’s clear that Getz isn’t the guy to be a build a best-in-class operation and Hahn has zero ability to find someone better.  Until we start afresh in that area, sustainable success will never be possible for us.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, HOFHurt35 said:

The Sox are not failing because of whatever hypothetical LaRussa motivated roster moves were made. 

The Sox are failing because the guys who were suppose to be stars just aren't cutting it.  That simple.  Then add continues terrible drafting and minor league development by a front office that goes beyond Hahn's tenure as GM,  there is basically a zero talent pipeline to help supplement the failed current roster core and to be able to extend any sort of successful continuity.

I laugh at the idea that Reinsdorf will allow yet another rebuild to take place under the leadership of Hahn and Williams.  Good luck finding the jumpstart trade pieces on this roster like those of Sale, Quintana, and Eaton.   Or better said, good luck finding any team willing to give their farm up on any trades these days.  Those days are over.  You gotta be able to draft and develop, and good luck again with Hahn and Williams doing that. 

Re about your comment JR would not allow another rebuild. I would tend to agree with you, but remember during the seasons of the last , very recent rebuild, JR never made more money.

[HOFHurt35]

22 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It's a combination of both. You are absolutely correct about the "core" players but it is also true that TLR wanted Garcia and Kelly. 

Every manager I believe would have some sort of input to their bottom of the roster, Garcia and Kelly would be in the lower 3rd of a 25/26 man roster.    Grant it those options truly weren't cheap, considering every dollar matters for this team unfortunately.   

But let's be real here, how much of the % of this failure do you hang on LaRussa and his dumb ass roster picks (assuming true) after seeing how this new current manager has failed even worse with the current core of players? 

To me, it's actually the total opposite and more praise should go to LaRussa who managed .500+ for 2 years with this club. 

 

[whitesoxfan99]

Remember when there was debate about if the Sox or Braves had the better farm system?  Those were the days.  Braves have won a World Series, had a 100 win season and are about to make their 6th straight postseason.  The Sox will be rebuilding again soon.

Edited July 2, 2023 by whitesoxfan99

[joejoesox]

If I were Chris Getz, I would be looking for a new job outside of baseball. I think he's gone before next year. 

[caulfield12]

29 minutes ago, joejoesox said:

If I were Chris Getz, I would be looking for a new job outside of baseball. I think he's gone before next year. 

The White Sox love to bring untalented cronies on board who won't threaten their positions or rock the boat.

It's hard to believe canning him would be a sufficient scapegoat to pacify anyone, unless there was an implicit guarantee they were going outside the organization finally for new leadership.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It's a combination of both. You are absolutely correct about the "core" players but it is also true that TLR wanted Garcia and Kelly. 

And Eaton and Lynn among others.

The entire thing was a disaster then, and the team is still feeling the effects today with nine figures committed to s%*# that would have been much better spent on others. Then again, it's Hahn spending, so there's that.

Would have been nice if Hinch could have helped bring the Sox into the 21st century in terms of modern baseball ideas, player development, analytics. Instead we got Dave Duncan's son. 

3 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

To me, it's actually the total opposite and more praise should go to LaRussa who managed .500+ for 2 years with this club.

They weren't "over" ,500, they were ,500 last year. Ricky had a much better record in 2020, and had a better playoffs in 2020. 

This gaslighting of the two years of La Russa is beyond laughable. You're like that clown Nightengale who wants to give Tony another HOF plaque.

Tony La Russa is s%*#. Rick Hahn is s%*#. Jerry Reinsdorf is s%*#. Period.

[South Side Hit Men]

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I think it’s quite obvious that Tony was key in the signing of Joe Kelly, they literally told us that. I’d try to track down the tweets on that but well, Twitter.

Tony was probably involved heavily in the Leury signing. 

The other big moves that offseason were picking up Kimbrel’s deal and moving him for Pollock, letting Rodon walk, signing Graveman, and the desperation signing of Cueto after Lynn got hurt and they realized they had no backup plans. Graveman - that’s a classic Hahn signing. Kimbrel? That sure seemed like Hahn trying to cover up his mistake.

But, these signings hurt but they didn’t kill. You can’t look at the white Sox and say “this one deal is the biggest problem”, this situation is the result of issues and failures going back to 2017 and even before. 

Bad drafting, failure to use the international market effectively, overspending on bullpens, failure to develop depth, compounded by individual moves that were either awful at the time or that got bad over time. Tony LaRussa didn’t draft Crochet and then bury him in the bullpen so they have no starting depth. Maybe Tony LaRussa put Kopech in the pen so his arm isn’t conditioned, but that sure is consistent with Hahn’s moves. Tony LaRussa didn’t fail to use international money. Tony LaRussa didn’t draft Vaughn and Madrigal, and he didn’t get nothing else out of those drafts.

I agree with just about all of this, including Hahn is the primary person responsible for this s%*# show.

Some are arguing things I didn't say. What I said was:

1. La Russa wasn't "run out of here". He had bad health issues, likely including continued alcoholism, and barely functioned as a human being his two years here until he was detoxed.
2. The moves Hahn and La Russa made over the two years were bad.
3. La Russa had a bigger role in these moves than a Ricky or Pedro.
4. Hinch inherited a much shittier team two and a half seasons ago, and they are better at this point.
5. Some of the reoccurring issues would have been corrected.
6. Hinch's input would have been superior to signing guys who played for Tony in Saint Louis, Arizona or Anaheim.

[HOFHurt35]

30 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

And Eaton and Lynn among others.

The entire thing was a disaster then, and the team is still feeling the effects today with nine figures committed to s%*# that would have been much better spent on others. Then again, it's Hahn spending, so there's that.

Would have been nice if Hinch could have helped bring the Sox into the 21st century in terms of modern baseball ideas, player development, analytics. Instead we got Dave Duncan's son. 

They weren't "over" ,500, they were ,500 last year. Ricky had a much better record in 2020, and had a better playoffs in 2020. 

This gaslighting of the two years of La Russa is beyond laughable. You're like that clown Nightengale who wants to give Tony another HOF plaque.

Tony La Russa is s%*#. Rick Hahn is s%*#. Jerry Reinsdorf is s%*#. Period.

They went 174 and 150 for the 2 years under LaRussa, that's well over .500.   And with a core of players who truly really isn't a great collection of baseball talent as we're finding out Today. 

Don't let the LaRussa hate blind you from the facts. 

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Our rotation in a championship-pursuing season includes Touki Toussaint and Tanner Banks.  Good fucking god does Rick Hahn suck a fat you know what.

[South Side Hit Men]

15 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

They went 174 and 150 for the 2 years under LaRussa, that's well over .500.   And with a core of players who truly really isn't a great collection of baseball talent as we're finding out Today. 

Don't let the LaRussa hate blind you from the facts. 

1. 2020 Ricky Renteria 35-25 .583
2. 2021 Tony La Russa 93-69 .574
3. 2022 Tony La Russa 81-81 .500

I actually felt for La Russa, was glad he turned his life around resigning to take care of his obvious health issues.

Just not a good manager without a decade plus of Balco syringes and two HOF GMs. His legacy would be much stronger if he stayed retired in the FO and manager seat after 2012.

[Lip Man 1]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Our rotation in a championship-pursuing season includes Touki Toussaint and Tanner Banks.  Good fucking god does Rick Hahn suck a fat you know what.

But remember the owner is happy with him and Rick is getting well paid to fail! 😆

[Harry Chappas]

5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It's a combination of both. You are absolutely correct about the "core" players but it is also true that TLR wanted Garcia and Kelly. 

Who wanted Frazier, Hanser and now Shaw.  Leury had been there well before Tony. 

[South Side Hit Men]

9 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Who wanted Frazier, Hanser and now Shaw.  Leury had been there well before Tony. 

Who wanted Jake Lamb in RF? Who wanted Andrew Vaughn in LF?

Who wanted Steak Dinner extended here for two more years, crippling the staff who could use an actual decent starter?

Lance is only motivated at this stage by revenge because he isn't physically capable of fielding bunts. He has been horseshit since he s%*# the bed in the playoffs. But he pitched for Tony in 2012, Tony vouched for him.

Tony also wanted a 3 year extension for his 'everyday reserve" Leury, DFA'd one third into the contract.

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Who wanted Frazier, Hanser and now Shaw.  Leury had been there well before Tony. 

Extension....

[T R U]

Probably just cursed for firing Ricky after the 2020 season for no real reason.

[Chicago White Sox]

Another reason to blow it up is a likely payroll decrease next year.  I don’t see us going above $150M and that might be stretching it.  Right now we are on the hook for $75M between Moncada, Benintendi, Eloy & Robert plus the buyout of Clevinger and the remaining money owed to Leury.  That gives us $75M to work with to build an entire pitching staff and fill nine positional spots.

Yes, there are some pre-arb guys, but not a ton of them.  On the positional side of things, we got Burger, Colas, & Sosa.  Technically Zavala & Perez are pre-arb, so maybe assume one of them will be the backup catcher?  Romy & Sheets also could be bench options theoretically, but kind of goes against trying to win.  On the pitching side, it’s primarily Santos & Crochet in the bullpen (assuming the ladder will even be healthy), although I’m sure there is a AAA reliever or two who might be options.  Let’s assume we get a pre-arb SP prospect in a Giolito trade that can fill a spot in the rotation right away.  That’s 11 guys for roughly $7M in cost if you include two AAA rando’s for the bullpen.

That leaves the arb & option guys.  The former is basically just Cease, Kopech, & Vaughn and my guess is they’d make close to $20M combined next year.  The latter is Tim, Lance, & Liam.  Even if they decline Lance’s option, you are looking at $30M in commitments.  Combined those five add another $50M in payroll.

That leaves $18M to fill out the remaining six spots, which will require a starting catcher, two SP, and three relievers.  And the vast majority of the team will be from the same group that completely floundered this year.  Does anyone actually feel this like this a rotational path towards competing in 2024?

Again, blow it the F up and let a new external leader rebuild the organization.