Ohtani Watch: Dodgers sign - 700M over 10yrs

[South Side Hit Men]

6 hours ago, nrockway said:

I fully agree with what you say about Lakeview, I think this probably bears out in the statistics and supports my own perspective that Hyde Park (a heavily-policed bubble), Bridgeport, even Auburn-Gresham and Grand Boulevard (places I spend time these days) are probably safer areas than Lakeview. Certainly, if I've ever felt uneasy in Chicago, it's been downtown (a recent innovation) or on the North Side. I think it's fair to assume that petty criminals are logical and they stand to gain a better score in these areas than anywhere on the South Side.

Regarding the baseball component of your post, I think that speaks to my point of a contradiction between good management and an unlimited budget. Good management can produce very good teams on a limited budget, but the richer teams tend to win out. On the Padres, I feel as though they only traded Soto to look more desirable to a new owner (I think you made this point as well). They traded a potential Hall of Famer to a financial powerhouse for scraps for financial reasons, not baseball ones. Baseball would be more interesting if the Yankees and Royals had the same budget to spend on players.

The entire arbitration process seems frankly absurd to me, that removing it would create more parity on a year-to-year basis if every team had the same limitations to work within, like the NBA, so that maybe a team like the Royals could legitimately trade for Juan Soto and expect to re-sign him, being able to offer a higher salary or otherwise retain its talented players via Bird Rights. Or that the Devil Rays would be a consistent powerhouse because they're effectively managed in spite of poor real estate decisions the ownership group made. 

Trading good players on their last year or two of arbitration is fun to discuss, thinking about the prospects that might be gained in return, but it seems better for the sport if every team operated under the same financial conditions. Yes, in the NBA, luxury tax is a concern otherwise the Oklahoma City Thunder wouldn't have traded James Harden for scraps and broken up a team that potentially had 3 homegrown MVP talents in their primes playing together, but otherwise the parity in that league is far better. Which is why a salary floor is good too, so that teams are forced to spend on players or else lose the money by distributing the difference to the rest of the roster. 

Definitely agree the salary floor should be at minimum the amount each team gets as their TV / MLB.com deal. I would also add the amount of additional revenue sharing teams get.

MLB has the RSN issue causing the greatest disparity (ownership of RSN vs. non ownership and market size) that also impact the NHL and NBA but not to the same extent.

Several owners choose not spend what they could afford to and still make profit. They choose to maximize  net income derived off of teams which actually try to compete and drive most of the interest in the sport. These teams basically serve as cannon fodder by choice, the Washington Generals, for fielding losing teams. 

Still need smart management.  Jerry would have the same issues winning with Dodgers revenue, due to his front office selections (Gar Pax or Ken Hahn) and stubbornness. Tampa Bay Rays, Cleveland Guardians FO / Org (plus the Padres deceased owner or the Mets’ Cohen willing to spend) would possibly equal a dynasty. Money a big factor, but would take smart FO over dumb money (Top 5/10 revenue with bottom 5/10 FO/Org talent like the Sox and Bulls).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 hours ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

Your point is well taken, but again it comes down to Reinsdorf and his organization sucking.

Regardless, Reinsdorf  preemptively stated that they wouldn't even make an attempt to sign the best player in baseball.

That was just Reinsdorf playing 4D chess. If Roberts talking about the Dodgers upset Ohtani's camp to the point that he now won't sign with the Dodgers, Jerry makes it appear the Sox have no interest in Ohtani months in advance . Now there are no leaks, no nothing indicating Ohtani to the Sox. Reinsdorf is one shrewd dude.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I mean, ok. How do the Cubs stop the White Sox from competing against Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City? 

Jerry Reinsdorf living another 10 or so years is the worst thing that can happen. 

Surprised at you. Yea Reinsdorf living a extraordinarily long life isn't beneficial to Sox fans but certainly not worse than Ohtani ending up on the North side at a time when the Sox have bottomed out and in 5 or 6 years  the lease with the city runs out ? Sorry I don't usually keep up with the Reinsdorf dealings with the city of Chicago so I might not be stating it corrently. They are also at a critical point of getting another TV contract. If the Cubs got Ohtani at this critical time in the future of the White Sox you might as well just say adios White Sox. Good luck in whatever city you end up in. Were talking about over 100 years of Chicago traditions, ties that bind generations of families and friends together ending .

Even if Reinsdorf passed away today, there's no guarantee the Sox would get a better owner.

We're not talking about rivalries with baseball opponents this is about the survival of the White Sox franchise in Chicago. That's how bad Ohtani as a Cub would be.

[Highland]

I would be curious to see the Sox response if the Cubs did get Ohtani. Would they continue on their snail-paced rebuild or would they respond in a big way? They are barely on the radar screen now. Really, why should anyone care about the White Sox right now? Getz is our savior?

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Surprised at you. Yea Reinsdorf living a extraordinarily long life isn't beneficial to Sox fans but certainly not worse than Ohtani ending up on the North side at a time when the Sox have bottomed out and in 5 or 6 years  the lease with the city runs out ? Sorry I don't usually keep up with the Reinsdorf dealings with the city of Chicago so I might not be stating it corrently. They are also at a critical point of getting another TV contract. If the Cubs got Ohtani at this critical time in the future of the White Sox you might as well just say adios White Sox. Good luck in whatever city you end up in. Were talking about over 100 years of Chicago traditions, ties that bind generations of families and friends together ending .

Even if Reinsdorf passed away today, there's no guarantee the Sox would get a better owner.

We're not talking about rivalries with baseball opponents this is about the survival of the White Sox franchise in Chicago. That's how bad Ohtani as a Cub would be.

I think this is very alarmist and hyperbolic. The White Sox aren’t leaving Chicago. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Surprised at you. Yea Reinsdorf living a extraordinarily long life isn't beneficial to Sox fans but certainly not worse than Ohtani ending up on the North side at a time when the Sox have bottomed out and in 5 or 6 years  the lease with the city runs out ? Sorry I don't usually keep up with the Reinsdorf dealings with the city of Chicago so I might not be stating it corrently. They are also at a critical point of getting another TV contract. If the Cubs got Ohtani at this critical time in the future of the White Sox you might as well just say adios White Sox. Good luck in whatever city you end up in. Were talking about over 100 years of Chicago traditions, ties that bind generations of families and friends together ending .

Even if Reinsdorf passed away today, there's no guarantee the Sox would get a better owner.

We're not talking about rivalries with baseball opponents this is about the survival of the White Sox franchise in Chicago. That's how bad Ohtani as a Cub would be.

This is true... but given history of over 40 seasons, I'm prepared to take my chances. Hard to see how they could get a worse owner isn't it?

[South Side Hit Men]

12 minutes ago, Highland said:

I would be curious to see the Sox response if the Cubs did get Ohtani. Would they continue on their snail-paced rebuild or would they respond in a big way? They are barely on the radar screen now. Really, why should anyone care about the White Sox right now? Getz is our savior?

This. I think an Ohtani signing with the Cubs would force the Sox to respond with a big investment, or possibly pushing Jerry to sell shortly after creating the new TV package.

My first inclination was Jerry wouldn’t have a tanking bottom three payroll like Fischer, but after researching further this is what he did in the 1980s.  The team won despite this because of the efforts of Larry Himes, who was fired for doing a good job but failing to kiss Jerry’s ass sufficiently.

White Sox MLB Payroll Rank - 26 Team Era 1984 - 1992:

1984 (2); 1985 (19); 1986 (18); 1987 (21): 1988 (24); 1989 (24); 1990 (25); 1991 (21); 1992 (14).

White Sox MLB Payroll Rank - 28 Team Era 1993 - 1997:

1993 (5); 1994 (8); 1995 (6); 1996 (5); 1997 (14).

White Sox MLB Payroll Rank - 30 Team Era 1998 - 2023:

1998 (18); 1999 (24); 2000 (25); 2001 (14); 2002 (18); 2003 (22); 2004 (14); 2005 (13); 2006 (5); 2007 (5); 2008 (5); 2009 (11); 2010 (9); 2011 (7); 2012 (12);  2013 (11); 2014 (23); 2015 (15); 2016 (16); 2017 (23); 2018 (29); 2019 (26); 2020 (17); 2021 (15); 2022 (7); 2023 (13).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I think this is very alarmist and hyperbolic. The White Sox aren’t leaving Chicago. 

You've been on this board long enough to know that fan interest is driven by a team with a huge superstar.

There are plenty of people who became White Sox fans because Frank Thomas. Then there are the many wheres it's a family tradition for better or worse. The only thing that makes an impressional kid override what he is learning from his family is what he's hearing from everyone besides family. That would be the internet, TV, radio , friends, classmates all raving about Ohtani. Good luck having any Sox fans created when the world's biggest superstar in baseball is a Cub.

I think you have vastly underestimated the impact of Ohtani . If you think the Sox are irrelevant now it could be sooo much worse . Reinsdorf has had the team and operated it the same way for 40+ years. How much worse is more of the same actually going to make it ?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

This is true... but given history of over 40 seasons, I'm prepared to take my chances. Hard to see how they could get a worse owner isn't it?

Oh I don't know. Look at the history of Sox ownership. You tell me.

[Lip Man 1]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I don't know. Look at the history of Sox ownership. You tell me.

How does keeping the status quo change anything for the better? There's your answer.

I can only speak for myself but I'm willing to take a chance on a new ownership group since it in all likelihood will not be a single individual. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

How does keeping the status quo change anything for the better? There's your answer.

I can only speak for myself but I'm willing to take a chance on a new ownership group since it in all likelihood will not be a single individual. 

It doesn't but it the point was that Ohtani as a Cub would make it make it way worse . If the Sox are on life support now but still have fans visiting it in the hospital what happens when all but the most diehard Sox fans become Cubs fans ? The Cubs would own 90% of the city. No one would care if JR sold or moved the Sox . That kind of sounds a lot worse to me than another 5 years of JR. Maybe it's splitting hairs ,rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and all that but the only thing keeping the Sox viable as a franchise if fans that care about them. You take that away and the franchise on life support dies of neglect.

[The Mighty Mite]

45 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I don't know. Look at the history of Sox ownership. You tell me.

Yeah, but the odds are in our favor, we’re due for an owner who has deep pockets and cares about the fans.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I think this is very alarmist and hyperbolic. The White Sox aren’t leaving Chicago. 

I agree the only way MLB allows them to leave is if another team commits to taking their place. I do also think the Cubs getting Ohtani would be quite a blow to the White Sox

It is hard for me to believe thee rest of baseball doesn't see how incompetently the White Sox haveww been run, and the potential to print money is there for an owner truly committed to winning. There really is no excuse the White Sox haven't  dominated their division this century.  A guy who just wanted to win and hired good people, not yes men,  has so many advantages over all other ALC teams.

 

 

[caulfield12]

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2023-12-08/shohei-ohtani-free-agency-japanese-reporters-move

[Vote4Pedro]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

This is true... but given history of over 40 seasons, I'm prepared to take my chances. Hard to see how they could get a worse owner isn't it?

That’s what we’ve said about managerial changes from Renteria to TLR to Pedro and the jury is still out on going from Hahn to Getz obviously but many think it’s going to be a failure based on his previous credentials so I would be careful on saying the new ownership can’t be worse than Jerry…but it’s definitely something I’m willing to gamble on 

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

15 hours ago, DirtySox said:

I mean. The White Sox are going to be irrelevant the next couple of years regardless. Who cares if Ohtani is on the north side?

This is just a crazy take. If Ohtani came to the Cubs, the White Sox would become even more irrelevant than they already are. In fact it would probably cause them to have to move eventually because absolutely no kid would choose to root for the Sox and that becomes a factor down the line.

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

This is just a crazy take. If Ohtani came to the Cubs, the White Sox would become even more irrelevant than they already are. In fact it would probably cause them to have to move eventually because absolutely no kid would choose to root for the Sox and that becomes a factor down the line.

They’re already very irrelevant in this town.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They’re already very irrelevant in this town.

They would become so irrelevant that there would actually be reason to believe they would leave for Nashville.

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

They would become so irrelevant that there would actually be reason to believe they would leave for Nashville.

No chance they move.

[Vote4Pedro]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It doesn't but it the point was that Ohtani as a Cub would make it make it way worse . If the Sox are on life support now but still have fans visiting it in the hospital what happens when all but the most diehard Sox fans become Cubs fans ? The Cubs would own 90% of the city. No one would care if JR sold or moved the Sox . That kind of sounds a lot worse to me than another 5 years of JR. Maybe it's splitting hairs ,rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and all that but the only thing keeping the Sox viable as a franchise if fans that care about them. You take that away and the franchise on life support dies of neglect.

You know the best thing that combats a superstar on the other side of town? Winning…spending money the right way and putting a winning product on the field. The fandom will take care of itself but of course when you have a cheap ass owner that won’t buy a star, management who can’t develop their own and a marketing team that can’t promote their own product then of course if the cubs land Ohtani they would own the future fan base. We aren’t the lovable losers who have people flock to Guaranteed Rate because of the history of the stadium. White Sox fans will show with a consistent winner on the field, that is proven…,but when you continue to put your own interests (loyalty, making money for your business partners, unwilling to adapt to the modern game, etc) ahead of winning then you get exactly to the spot the Sox are in….a future of irrelevance and incompetence from the top down throughout the organization. 

[The Mighty Mite]

14 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

This is just a crazy take. If Ohtani came to the Cubs, the White Sox would become even more irrelevant than they already are. In fact it would probably cause them to have to move eventually because absolutely no kid would choose to root for the Sox and that becomes a factor down the line.

The summer sports segment on the news on the local Chicago stations would be 99% about Ohtani and the Cubs with the remaining 1% the score of the Sox game, maybe. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

The summer sports segment on the news on the local Chicago stations would be 99% about Ohtani and the Cubs with the remaining 1% the score of the Sox game, maybe. 

It’s not already that way?

[caulfield12]

Can't even imagine anyone buying a Sox jersey other Luis Robert, Jr., right now.

Who would it possibly be?

You can't risk Eloy...likely trade bait.  Same with Cease or Kopech.

So Montgomery would be the only other logical choice.

 

(And another reason dumping Burger hurts right now.)

Edited December 9, 2023 by caulfield12

[Vote4Pedro]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

It’s not already that way?

Nah the Sox get like a 3% bump in that because of their current incompetence and mess throughout the organization. That alone keeps them in the media. Not their play on the field that’s for sure 

[Vote4Pedro]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Can't even imagine anyone buying a Sox jersey other Luis Robert, Jr., right now.

Who would it possibly be?

You can't risk Eloy...likely trade bait.  Dame with Cease or Kopech.

So Montgomery would be the only other logical choice.

Those Naperville Nicky jerseys gonna sell like hot cakes I’m sure…..😂