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1 minute ago, Nardiwashere said:

I think some for some people, they define "competitive" differently and that's the disconnect. 

I think others just have a humiliation/complaining kink and they get off on losing and pouting about losing.  

I used to think Sox fans had a lot in common with NYC baseball fans because I thought they demanded a lot from the team.  This new post-twitter breed of Sox fan just likes to whine. 

You'd think the reaction to the team would be "Go out and get some bats!" but instead its sad guys claiming its impossible to find a second baseman. 

Im alarmed at how off base your perception of this message board is.

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19 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Agree.  The offense needs a lot of help.  However, I don't think its too much to ask a front office to figure out a way to sign or trade for a 2B, RF, 1B, and a DH over the course of two seasons when they have millions coming off the books.

You sound like a JR apologist.  You don't expect them to be able to field a .500 team in the next three years?  I hold my teams to higher standards I guess. 

lmao, what does this even mean?  Your "standards" have nothing to do with what the team looks like on the field.  Most of us are looking at the roster and seeing the COMPLETE lack of talent in the system short term.  It isn't that hard to not see this team being decent for a number of years.  Knowing their history, even if they do go out and sign guys, they are going to play in the 3rd tier market anyways, which isn't going to move the needle enough to matter going forward.  I really hope you aren't expecting this team to be real players for top free agents as a condition of being good soon.

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4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

lmao, what does this even mean?  Your "standards" have nothing to do with what the team looks like on the field.  Most of us are looking at the roster and seeing the COMPLETE lack of talent in the system short term.  It isn't that hard to not see this team being decent for a number of years.  Knowing their history, even if they do go out and sign guys, they are going to play in the 3rd tier market anyways, which isn't going to move the needle enough to matter going forward.  I really hope you aren't expecting this team to be real players for top free agents as a condition of being good soon.

It means that I don't think there's any reason for a team in a major market to not be able to field a .500 team after losing for 3-4 years, millions of dollars coming off the books, only one bad long term contract, and an influx of talent coming up.  

That isn't some insane expectation.  

Rick Hahn couldn't find a RF or a 2B and spent all his payroll on bullpen arms.  He's gone.  That doesn't mean that the Sox will (or should) operate like that for the rest of time.  I'm not predicting they will sign Juan Soto... but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that there's no way for them to become an average team in a couple of years.

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2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

It means that I don't think there's any reason for a team in a major market to not be able to field a .500 team after losing for 3-4 years, millions of dollars coming off the books, only one bad long term contract, and an influx of talent coming up.  

That isn't some insane expectation.  

Rick Hahn couldn't find a RF or a 2B and spent all his payroll on bullpen arms.  He's gone.  That doesn't mean that the Sox will (or should) operate like that for the rest of time.  I'm not predicting they will sign Juan Soto... but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that there's no way for them to become an average team in a couple of years.

Cool.  That expectation doesn't change what the team will do even for a second. 

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10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, that might be said by a couple, but it isn't reality.

-They started seemingly with a plan for a good defense, but as soon as they  had offensive problems, that went away.  Sheets and Pham are now in the OF on a daily basis, and Eloy just played RF.  If they had stuck with that plan, sure give them credit for doing what they said.  They said it, and then did the opposite as soon as things got tough.  The team is dead last in MLB in defensive rating according to fangraphs.  That includes being last in DRS, 2nd to last in UZR and UZR/150, last in FRV, last in runs saved by arms, and last in runs saved above average.

-They might well have been trying to build rotation pieces, but how many starters have we been through?  How are they identifying guys in like two starts?  Either they knew they weren't good when they brought them up, which isn't much of a plan, or they are panic moving to the next guy when they pitch exactly how they expected they would pitch.  A plan implies trying something for a while to see if it works.  Nine different guys have started games for the Sox.  Keller and Nastrini got two starts.  Canon got three.  If they through they were ready, they would have gotten more than that.

-I do like you appreciate you reaching into the 3 players got hurt bag, but again, for teams who were anywhere near the Sox in roster moves, those teams have had more DL trips.  The Sox moves haven't been as much because of injuries, but very predictable badness.

-If they are trying to give prospects more time, that would mean NOT calling up guys like Nastrini, Canon, Ramos etc and just rolling with what you have.  It would mean sticking with a middling guy like Sosa instead of starting the clock on Ramos, or a guy like Colas instead of going to the street again, and losing more roster slots.

-Also if you want to talk about defense in terms of catchers, that unnamed catcher we brought in off of the street is 58th of 61 in DRS.  He is 5th from last in Stolen bases saved.  He's 8th from last in good fielding plays runs saved.  He is 3rd worst in catcher defensive rating.  He is 60th of 61 in Statcast fielding run value which covers throwing, blocking, framing, arm and RAA.  I am sure the pitchers appreciate him at least giving them a boost on offense... oh wait.

defense

DeJong and Lopez lead the team in defense, last time I checked. Win. Robert and Moncada could have been expected to extend their good defense. Meh. Vaughn and Benintendi are not good. Vaughn - they probably are going to give him the entire season to show if he's a piece because of his 1st round status. Benny - they're paying him, so they're going to play him. Fletcher seemed exposed in CF. They're just filling holes in the outfield, right now. Maybe Fletcher will start getting a shot again. Maybe since DeLoach is starting to hit, he's next. 

rotation

They had a plan, and they seem to be sticking to it, making adjustments on the fly, either of plugging in long men after Flexen/Soroka, or parking them in the bullpen for a rest or rework. Every team brings up prospects, sees them get overmatched, then sends them back. Jackson Holliday is the main one you keep ignoring. The gap is so huge that you can't "know" if a player is ready for that jump. 

injury

They had 3 huge injuries. I'm using the injuries and slumps to explain the heightened concern for a record setting environment of futility for which that they had to find some balance, not the roster churn, which I don't even care about, and don't see that as any cause of concern. I've even stated that I like the attitude of grabbing guys off of waivers, checking them out in game settings, and moving on if they don't look like something that would work. The more you bring up churn, the more I agree with you that he does a lot of that, and I say it's a positive. 

prospects

The great unknown is the jump between AAA and the majors. Clocks will be starting for a bunch of guys this year. All that matters is that they retain the extra year, and in the case of Monty, keep him from super-2 status. I can argue a quick trip to the majors and back is good for a prospect to see how fast the pro game is, what they need to work on, and an incentive to get back. They had to stop the bleeding on the "historical bad start" story. Sosa wasn't going to do that. I'm guessing they do have a glimmer of hope for Colas, and really want him to be best equipped when they promote him next time. 

maldonado

I didn't like the signing, either. I think they should DFA him and activate anybody. Chuckie Robinson works for me. You know I love the roster churn. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Cool.  That expectation doesn't change what the team will do even for a second. 

I don't think it does.  

But just because they disappointed me the last couple years, I'm not going to pretend it takes 5 years to build a team as good as the Detroit Tigers when they have like 65 million dollars coming off the books. 

Edited by Nardiwashere
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28 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

I don't think it does.  

But just because they disappointed me the last couple years, I'm not going to pretend it takes 5 years to build a team as good as the Detroit Tigers when they have like 65 million dollars coming off the books. 

If they are going to spend on 2nd and 3rd tier free agents it really doesn't help though. 

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3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

2016 had 3 tradable assets, no development system, and little in the farm. While we had Semien and Bassett, nobody considered them to be much beyond utility and bullpen. 

The Giolito, Lynn, Burger, Graveman, Middleton and Bummer trades set us up far better than we sat in 2013.

Abreu Avi Viciedo Semien Bassitt Sale Q Eaton Reed might argue otherwise.

Even Adam Dunn had a pretty decent 2012.

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48 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

I don't think it does.  

But just because they disappointed me the last couple years, I'm not going to pretend it takes 5 years to build a team as good as the Detroit Tigers when they have like 65 million dollars coming off the books. 

Assuming ownership doesn't change in the next few years the operational philosophy won't change...which mean the talent won't really change and neither will the results on the field.

I agree with you, a team in a major market shouldn't be one of the worst in baseball since the start of the 2007 season, but current ownership feels they are smarter than everyone else and their way is the correct way to run a baseball operation. 

Until that changes the fan base is stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

 

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1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

defense

DeJong and Lopez lead the team in defense, last time I checked. Win. Robert and Moncada could have been expected to extend their good defense. Meh. Vaughn and Benintendi are not good. Vaughn - they probably are going to give him the entire season to show if he's a piece because of his 1st round status. Benny - they're paying him, so they're going to play him. Fletcher seemed exposed in CF. They're just filling holes in the outfield, right now. Maybe Fletcher will start getting a shot again. Maybe since DeLoach is starting to hit, he's next. 

rotation

They had a plan, and they seem to be sticking to it, making adjustments on the fly, either of plugging in long men after Flexen/Soroka, or parking them in the bullpen for a rest or rework. Every team brings up prospects, sees them get overmatched, then sends them back. Jackson Holliday is the main one you keep ignoring. The gap is so huge that you can't "know" if a player is ready for that jump. 

injury

They had 3 huge injuries. I'm using the injuries and slumps to explain the heightened concern for a record setting environment of futility for which that they had to find some balance, not the roster churn, which I don't even care about, and don't see that as any cause of concern. I've even stated that I like the attitude of grabbing guys off of waivers, checking them out in game settings, and moving on if they don't look like something that would work. The more you bring up churn, the more I agree with you that he does a lot of that, and I say it's a positive. 

prospects

The great unknown is the jump between AAA and the majors. Clocks will be starting for a bunch of guys this year. All that matters is that they retain the extra year, and in the case of Monty, keep him from super-2 status. I can argue a quick trip to the majors and back is good for a prospect to see how fast the pro game is, what they need to work on, and an incentive to get back. They had to stop the bleeding on the "historical bad start" story. Sosa wasn't going to do that. I'm guessing they do have a glimmer of hope for Colas, and really want him to be best equipped when they promote him next time. 

maldonado

I didn't like the signing, either. I think they should DFA him and activate anybody. Chuckie Robinson works for me. You know I love the roster churn. 

The defense has sucked because of the roster moves that Getz made, not because of the injuries to a large extent.  There is no injury in RF.  Martin Maldonado is having the worst season in baseball between his defense and offense both being the worst in the league.  Eloy is one of those injuries, and he wasn't supposed to see the field anyway.  The Sox have decent defensive CF, and they are running Tommy Pham out there.  They have other choices and are running Sheets in RF.

There is zero chance what is happening in the rotation is "planned".  You don't start 9 different guys in 40 something games without injuries, and call it a plan.

You know what is great for getting prospects acclimated to the majors?  Getting minimal regular ABs/innings and being sent down before they could possibly get comfortable, or work through anything. 

They didn't HAVE to stop the start they had.  They could have understood that their long term plan was more important and stuck with it.  Instead they panicked and dumped as much of the roster as they could, all while having no hope of contention for years.

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16 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Assuming ownership doesn't change in the next few years the operational philosophy won't change...which mean the talent won't really change and neither will the results on the field.

I agree with you, a team in a major market shouldn't be one of the worst in baseball since the start of the 2007 season, but current ownership feels they are smarter than everyone else and their way is the correct way to run a baseball operation. 

Until that changes the fan base is stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

 

Probably why Schriffin was hired. Jerry wanted a guy to scream and get excited over everything to combat the suck on the broadcasts when he watched.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nardiwashere said:

I don't think it does.  

But just because they disappointed me the last couple years, I'm not going to pretend it takes 5 years to build a team as good as the Detroit Tigers when they have like 65 million dollars coming off the books. 

When has a JR owned Sox team gone after the big fish?  They will do what they always do in free agency and spread their money out on a bunch of mediocre players, rather than signing one star that could out-WAR their entire offseason.  It’s sad but true and it doesn’t matter who the GM is — Getz, Hahn, or Kenny.  It’s Jerry’s call.  He doesn’t believe in paying the price that top free agents cost.  It will be more of the same strategy — sign mediocre, mid-level or lower tier free agents and hope they match their career years.

Edited by WhiteSox2023
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The defense has sucked because of the roster moves that Getz made, not because of the injuries to a large extent.  There is no injury in RF.  Martin Maldonado is having the worst season in baseball between his defense and offense both being the worst in the league.  Eloy is one of those injuries, and he wasn't supposed to see the field anyway.  The Sox have decent defensive CF, and they are running Tommy Pham out there.  They have other choices and are running Sheets in RF.

There is zero chance what is happening in the rotation is "planned".  You don't start 9 different guys in 40 something games without injuries, and call it a plan.

You know what is great for getting prospects acclimated to the majors?  Getting minimal regular ABs/innings and being sent down before they could possibly get comfortable, or work through anything. 

They didn't HAVE to stop the start they had.  They could have understood that their long term plan was more important and stuck with it.  Instead they panicked and dumped as much of the roster as they could, all while having no hope of contention for years.

Also, can we stop using injuries to Eloy and Moncada as an excuse?  One should expect these two guys to be injured more often than they actually play at this point.  To a lesser extent, Robert is starting to show the same signs of being injury-prone just like those two.

Edited by WhiteSox2023
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nardiwashere said:

It means that I don't think there's any reason for a team in a major market to not be able to field a .500 team after losing for 3-4 years, millions of dollars coming off the books, only one bad long term contract, and an influx of talent coming up.  

That isn't some insane expectation.  

Rick Hahn couldn't find a RF or a 2B and spent all his payroll on bullpen arms.  He's gone.  That doesn't mean that the Sox will (or should) operate like that for the rest of time.  I'm not predicting they will sign Juan Soto... but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that there's no way for them to become an average team in a couple of years.

Getz failed to find both positions as well (see Lopez and Fletcher), but apparently you only want to rip Hahn for these same failures.

Edited by WhiteSox2023
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5 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

Guys who will be on the team or coming up in the next year and a half

C Lee & Quero

LF Benitendi

CF Robert

3B Ramos

SS Montgomery

RF TBD

2B TBD

1B TBD

DH TBD

 

SP Crochet/Thorpe/Nastrini/Cannon/Iriarte/Eder/Bush/Adams

 

Then you have whoever we get at the deadline for Fedde, Kopech, Flexen, Brebbia, Eloy, Vaugn, Sheets, etc. 

Then any FA signings and trades in the offseason. 

Don't see how its a 5 year rebuild. 

You just listed Robert, one of the worst OFs in baseball, an interesting backup catcher, and 11 unproven prospects.  There is a very real chance it takes five years to be a legitimate contender again.  The major league roster is almost completely devoid of talent.  I think 2027 should be the realistic goal of when we are competing for an AL Central title.  I think it would take a miracle to be competitive before the 2027 season and not a ton has to go wrong for it to take a few years longer.

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23 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Just constantly replacing flotsam and jetsam with more flotsam and jetsam. Garbage in...garbage out.

I can't see any rhyme or reason to what Getz is doing or trying to do.

 

 

I’m the guy who keeps posting this, but you keep bringing in new bozos to replace the old bozos until you find the ones that suck the least. 

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1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

When has a JR owned Sox team gone after the big fish?  They will do what they always do in free agency and spread their money out on a bunch of mediocre players, rather than signing one star that could out-WAR their entire offseason.  It’s sad but true and it doesn’t matter who the GM is — Getz, Hahn, or Kenny.  It’s Jerry’s call.  He doesn’t believe in paying the price that top free agents cost.  It will be more of the same strategy — sign mediocre, mid-level or lower tier free agents and hope they match their career years.

Belle is the exception that proves the rule. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Belle is the exception that proves the rule. 

That was done primarily to send a message to the rest of the league why signing free agents like that is such a bad idea, lol...it worked out with the Sox, but the Orioles were set back for two decades with guys like Belle and Chris Davis.

Edited by caulfield12
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35 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That was done primarily to send a message to the rest of the league why signing free agents like that is such a bad idea, lol...it worked out with the Sox, but the Orioles were set back for two decades with guys like Belle and Chris Davis.

According to conventional wisdom and there is some evidence that has been published JR signed Belle to pay the other owners back for settling the labor issue in 94-95 and not on terms he wanted. 

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On 5/19/2024 at 8:59 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Because unlike you, I deal in reality.

Using the fangraphs transactions tracker:

-No team has had more different hitters on their roster than the White Sox at 22.  The only team tied with the Sox has 6 on the IL currently (sfg)  the Sox only have 3.  Pitchers weren't show for some reason.

-since the end of the 23 season, no team has as many transactions as the Sox (264).  The closest team has 22 less. (242/nym)

-Sox lead mlb in dfa's (21), including Keller today.

-Sox lead mlb in demotions (41)

-Sox lead mlb in promotions (44)

Any other imaginary statements you'd like to be proven wrong on?

 

Let's see what we got and clear out the deadwood. Here's some guys that are last chance types. 

Let's just get through this season with whatever warm bodies we can find. If we getz a month out of them that's fine, we'll just DFA them and move on. 

I can easily accept that if I saw a core that's two years away toiling in the system they don't want to rush to Chicago. I don't see the future. 

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11 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

That was done primarily to send a message to the rest of the league why signing free agents like that is such a bad idea, lol...it worked out with the Sox, but the Orioles were set back for two decades with guys like Belle and Chris Davis.

Forgot all about him. One of the worst contracts ever.

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