Sox trade Andrew Vaughn to acquire Aaron Civale

[KipWellsFan]

27 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Gavin has put up more WAR in 60 games in SD, than he did in 435 games in Chicago. Maybe it isn't the player at fault, but the organization and their choices?

I hear you, but Gavin also put up like 0.7 fWAR for us between 2021 and 2022. So it's hard to just assign fault to the team.

And the trend lately seems like a lot of former Sox are struggling or remaining pitiful/average: Abreu, Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn, etc. Jake Burger and Kopech, may have improved a bit, but that's debateable.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some dudes. But it really doesn't seem like getting out of Chicago is a cure-all.

[chitownsportsfan]

28 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Gavin has put up more WAR in 60 games in SD, than he did in 435 games in Chicago. Maybe it isn't the player at fault, but the organization and their choices?

Just a SSS for Gavin imo. He's down to a 115 wRC+ and .5 fWAR. Oddly enough the underlying and normalized stats are about identical to the first year he came up with Chicago, including xwOBA and fWAR. Gavin can hit a bit against RHP, but he's just a platoon guy at best.

As for this trade, good move! We get a flip candidate on a guy that should be motivated to try and put some good innings down before the start of August.

I get the tweet thanking him but jeeze, let's hope we get some better farewells in the next stage of our White Sox fan journey.

[PitchatRisktoZisk]

I wish him luck. Seemed like a decent guy. The Sox f'd up EVERY aspect of his development. Rushed him to Majors to justify the pick. Didn't send him down when he needed a reset. Finally (and worst) put him in the outfield where his lack of instinct and foot speed made him the worst option in MLB at that position. They thought they were drafting Steve Garvey and ended up with Steve Harvey.

[Capn12]

Yeah, that wasn't to say we should have held Gavin either, for sure. I just found it interesting that he is finding success in season 1 in SD. Now, that may very well end up playing out just like it did in Chicago.

As for AV, yet another in a long line of bad draft choices.

[Sox Fan In Husker Land]

As you all are aware of the Sox trading away Andrew Vaughn today, it just reiterates one of the main reasons why the White Sox have sucked, and why this “rebuild” went south fast were their draft classes from 2015-2019. For a team that will not spend $ you better have a good scouting department and draft well.

The Sox had 6 1st round picks over that 5 year span with 5 of them being in the Top 11, and 2 being in the Top 4. Listed below are the picks and their fWAR. 


2015 #8 Carson Fulmer -0.5 (-0.9 as a Sox player)
2016 #10 Zack Collins -2.1 (-2.2 as a Sox player)
2016 #26 Zack Burdi -0.3
2017 #11 Jake Burger 4.1 (1.9 as a Sox player)
2018 #4 Nick Madrigal 2.7 (1.8 as a Sox player)
2019 #3 Andrew Vaughn -1.8

Yikes. From 6 first round picks in a 5 year span they actually got -1.5 fWAR in their time in Chicago.

Edited June 13 by Sox Fan In Husker Land

[Tony]

8 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

I hear you, but Gavin also put up like 0.7 fWAR for us between 2021 and 2022. So it's hard to just assign fault to the team.

And the trend lately seems like a lot of former Sox are struggling or remaining pitiful/average: Abreu, Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn, etc. Jake Burger and Kopech, may have improved a bit, but that's debateable.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some dudes. But it really doesn't seem like getting out of Chicago is a cure-all.

Every case is different. But the key is development doesn't stop in the minor leagues. 

AJ Pierzynski was on the radio this week on ESPN 1000, and they asked him "With new ownership coming aboard, what would you do if you were the new owner? One of things he said was "If you talk to players who have played for the Sox recently, they'll tell you about deficiencies and coaching that players get in other organizations that they don't get with the White Sox." 

Historically, I believe there is enough evidence from results and reporting that have told us the White Sox were in the stone ages on player development. Hopefully that is changing, remains to be seen and I have serious doubts because of who the owner still is...but we'll start to get a better idea if change is really happening over the next 24 months.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

22 minutes ago, Sox Fan In Husker Land said:

As you all are aware of the Sox trading away Andrew Vaughn today, it just reiterates one of the main reasons why the White Sox have sucked, and why this “rebuild” went south fast were their draft classes from 2015-2019. For a team that will not spend $ you better have a good scouting department and draft well.

The Sox had 6 1st round picks over that 5 year span with 5 of them being in the Top 11, and 2 being in the Top 4. Listed below are the picks and their fWAR. 


2015 #8 Carson Fulmer -0.5 (-0.9 as a Sox player)
2016 #10 Zack Collins -2.1 (-2.2 as a Sox player)
2016 #26 Zack Burdi -0.3
2017 #11 Jake Burger 4.1 (1.9 as a Sox player)
2018 #4 Nick Madrigal 2.7 (1.8 as a Sox player)
2019 #3 Andrew Vaughn -1.8

Yikes. From 6 first round picks in a 5 year span they actually got -1.5 fWAR in their time in Chicago.

Now do the second rounders

[Bob Sacamano]

54 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't know about pro-Sheets, but tendering a contract to Vaughn in the off season was stupid then, and it didn't work out any better in hindsight.

Like I said, I didn’t really want either but would have just gambled on a lefty instead since we always need LH bats.

[Sox Fan In Husker Land]

20 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Now do the second rounders

2015 no 2nd Round pick.
2016 #49 Alec Hansen. Never reached MLB.
2017 #49 Gavin Sheets -1.2 (-1.7 as a Sox player)
2018 #46 Steele Walker -0.1 (0 as a Sox player)
2019 #35 Matt Thompson. Never reached MLB. 
 

So -1.7 fWAR as Sox players from Sheets is all. 

Edited June 13 by Sox Fan In Husker Land

[tray]

Disagree with AJ on this point, at least to some extent. My opinion is that talent evaluation is far, far  more important than player development. 

On one hand, you cannot develop players like AV, Madrigal, Oscar Colas and maybe, as it may turn out, Colson Montgomery into star players. Investing development time into them is throwing money out. 

On the other hand, players like Teel, Quero, Vargas and  Meidroth are the kind of players that the Sox should be given credit for identifying, acquiring and/or promoting. Their skills can be fine tuned, but they already have what it takes. 

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, tray said:

Disagree with AJ on this point, at least to some extent. My opinion is that talent evaluation is far, far  more important than player development. 

On one hand, you cannot develop players like AV, Madrigal, Oscar Colas and maybe, as it may turn out, Colson Montgomery into star players. Investing development time into them is throwing money out. 

On the other hand, players like Teel, Quero, Vargas and  Meidroth are the kind of players that the Sox should be given credit for identifying, acquiring and/or promoting. Their skills can be fine tuned, but they already have what it takes. 

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken crap as they say. Vaughn was chicken crap, same with Madrigal. Guys super limited physically that needed to hit their 80th percentile upside at the plate to have value as a regular. Neither guy even came close and I don't think it's any different with another franchise. 

[pcq]

Hilarious SI AI story. As if the crew robbed the Sox of a top talent in Vaughn. 

[Tony]

18 minutes ago, tray said:

Disagree with AJ on this point, at least to some extent. My opinion is that talent evaluation is far, far  more important than player development. 

On one hand, you cannot develop players like AV, Madrigal, Oscar Colas and maybe, as it may turn out, Colson Montgomery into star players. Investing development time into them is throwing money out. 

On the other hand, players like Teel, Quero, Vargas and  Meidroth are the kind of players that the Sox should be given credit for identifying, acquiring and/or promoting. Their skills can be fine tuned, but they already have what it takes. 

But the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I know I'm not making this point, and I don't believe AJ was...that if you have great player development, you can turn any baseball player into a star. Kind of goes without saying that talent evaluation is always going to be incredibly important. 

BUT...say your talent evaluation is on par with the upper echelon teams in the league. You identify someone with tremendous skills, but is raw (like most young talent) What are you doing to bring out those skills and develop them into great major league players? What coaching are you providing that gives your players an edge? What data are you providing to your players that no one else in the league is doing? 

[bmags]

2016
Zach Collins (10)
Zack Burdi (22)
2017
Jake Burger (11)
2018
Nick Madrigal (3)
2019
Andrew Vaughn (4)

Just awful. Easy to notice that despite picking in the parts of the draft you should be able to get extremely athletic players with some polish, Hostetler went after short, sometimes wide, righthanded, unathletic college hitters.

Burger was probably the most athletic, which is saying something.

And a reliever.

[Bob Sacamano]

10 minutes ago, bmags said:

2016
Zach Collins (10)
Zack Burdi (22)
2017
Jake Burger (11)
2018
Nick Madrigal (3)
2019
Andrew Vaughn (4)

Just awful. Easy to notice that despite picking in the parts of the draft you should be able to get extremely athletic players with some polish, Hostetler went after short, sometimes wide, righthanded, unathletic college hitters.

Burger was probably the most athletic, which is saying something.

And a reliever.

Wild but honestly, probably true.

[Dick Allen]

Is Hostetler still employed by the White Sox?

[tray]

Zach Collins, Burdi, Courtney Hawkins, etc etc etc..just so many failed picks.    The James Shields trade throwing in a young prospect (Fernando Tatis Jr)  is a case in point on both sides of that equation...not recognizing the decline of an older pitcher or even giving a second thought to including Tatis. 

[champagne030]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

As for this trade, good move! We get a flip candidate on a guy that should be motivated to try and put some good innings down before the start of August.

Civale was just flipped for Vaughn.  And his club had to kick in money to get rid of him.

 

[GreenSox]

3 hours ago, Timmy U said:

Why should Elko get more of an opportunity than, for instance, Baldwin. I want there to be real competition and real accountability. Play the best guys. It's not like Elko is a high draft pick

Just because Baldwin is not a first baseman. Even if he does well, he still isn’t going to deliver like a first base needs to.  Baldwin needs to work in centerfield; ultimately he’s probably a utility guy and perhaps a really good one.  
 

I’m not confident that Elko is the answer. But he’s the only first baseman  Sox have  that’s anywhere close right now. And Sox are in a position to give players real chances. I would give Fletcher and Julks another go over slater et al.  

[Soxfest]

AV was such a complete bust, sounds like he never put the time in to improve 

[Bob Sacamano]

54 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Just because Baldwin is not a first baseman. Even if he does well, he still isn’t going to deliver like a first base needs to.  Baldwin needs to work in centerfield; ultimately he’s probably a utility guy and perhaps a really good one.  
 

I’m not confident that Elko is the answer. But he’s the only first baseman  Sox have  that’s anywhere close right now. And Sox are in a position to give players real chances. I would give Fletcher and Julks another go over slater et al.  

You can just play Baldwin at 2B with Sosa/Vargas at 1B/3B. Rojas can hit the bench.

Edited June 13 by Bob Sacamano

[bmags]

Elko isn't good, but there are a lot of not good things on this roster.

I do find satisfaction having a tall first baseman after the last few years. Hard to go back. Vargas is acceptable. But you saw what happens with Lenyn, short people don't know where small obstacles like "bases" are. They are too close to the ground, have great balance. 

Tall people are at a constant fear of stepping on something and falling over, and dying. Nature over nurture here, gotta go tall.

[WestEddy]

16 minutes ago, bmags said:

Elko isn't good, but there are a lot of not good things on this roster.

I do find satisfaction having a tall first baseman after the last few years. Hard to go back. Vargas is acceptable. But you saw what happens with Lenyn, short people don't know where small obstacles like "bases" are. They are too close to the ground, have great balance. 

Tall people are at a constant fear of stepping on something and falling over, and dying. Nature over nurture here, gotta go tall.

They got little baby legs
They stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars that go, "beep, beep, beep"
They got little voices goin', "peep, peep, peep"

[tray]

Give Baldwin another shot. He has played first base and has power. I know, he only hit .215 but Elko does not look like he will break the .200 barrier. 

 

[bighurt574]

5 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Pitch your ass for the next month and a half and maybe you find yourself in a better situation.

 

Or earn a nice contract for next year.  I get why he didn't want to go to the BP heading into FA.