Data, Development and the FUTURE of White Sox Pitching | The White Sox Podcast

[almagest]

Gave this a listen this morning. Some good insight on some of the philosophical changes with the organization, particularly around pitching, as well as comments and updates on some of the interesting pitching in the system. One takeaway early on in the show is how much work they've done to modernize the organization.

Definitely worth your time. Bannister is a fun listen.

[Chicago White Sox]

Some really good stuff in here.

[Chicago White Sox]

Also, Rick Hahn should be thoroughly embarrassed for letting things get so far behind the times.

[almagest]

36 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Also, Rick Hahn should be thoroughly embarrassed for letting things get so far behind the times.

I won't blame Hahn for KW meddling, for JR forcing LaRussa on him, or for budgetary restrictions. I will absolutely, 100% blame him for everything else. His free agent and trade records were ATROCIOUS. There was zero Latin pipeline. Their drafting was terrible. We've also heard departments were isolated from one another, and Bannister hinted at just how bad the state of data was before he took over. None of this is acceptable for a GM.

Edited June 24 by almagest

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, almagest said:

I won't blame Hahn for KW meddling, for JR forcing LaRussa on him, or for budgetary restrictions. I will absolutely, 100% blame him for everything else. His free agent and trade records were ATROCIOUS. There was zero Latin pipeline. Their drafting was terrible. We've also heard departments were isolated from one another, and Bannister hinted at just how bad the state of data was before he took over. None of this is acceptable for a GM.

Especially for a GM without a scouting background and natural ability to identify talent.

[Lip Man 1]

If the changes lead to seasons where six pitchers (maybe more when all is said and done) don't have to have TJS that a definite win. 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

If the changes lead to seasons where six pitchers (maybe more when all is said and done) don't have to have TJS that a definite win. 

My fear is that the cause and effect is backwards, unfortunately.  We obviously need more years to confirm or deny, but this has been an alarming uptick in major surgeries with a long history of not really seeing that level of injury.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, almagest said:

Gave this a listen this morning. Some good insight on some of the philosophical changes with the organization, particularly around pitching, as well as comments and updates on some of the interesting pitching in the system. One takeaway early on in the show is how much work they've done to modernize the organization.

Definitely worth your time. Bannister is a fun listen.

Glad you posted it. I watched it right away because I subscribed to all Sox podcasts on YouTube to get as much info as possible. It had crossed my mind to do it but I figured with the state of the board it would just be considered Sox propaganda and the thread would die quickly. 

Plus there seems to be some misconception about how  Biomechanics works with regard to injury prevention and rehabilitation which is impossible to do. Yes it's is often stated goals to help in those areas but arm injuries come from throwing a baseball hard and for many years. It's wear and tear and most pitchers have been doing it for a decade  before most them ever get hooked up to  motion capture technology. They try to identify areas of inefficient movement or bad mechanics before or after injury and make adjustments. 

I have no idea of the Sox employ an injury prevention specialist among their medical people in conjunction with the biomechanists but you need both to work hand in hand they do need medical training and certification with deep knowledge of kinesiology , sports medicine and physical therapy. 

The athlete has to do his part and develop good habits . There are no instant cures. Bodies will always   break because of stressful forces. All they can do is make recommendations and you can't turn  back the  clock . Injuries are inevitable and fans are ill equipped to pass judgement on scientific and medical practices they are not involved with since they are not the player, coach,   biomechanist nor the medical practitioner . 

The most efficient way to throw a baseball is underhanded . Unfortunately it is not the way to throw it the hardest or with the most accuracy. 

The long link I have provided is an AI synopsis of 8 different articles on how Biomechanics and sports medicine  collaborate to HELP to try to assist in injury prevention and rehab.

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+medical+training+should+a+biomechanist+have+when+trying+to+prevent+and+rehab+sports+injuries+%3F&authuser=0&aep=21&udm=50&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=aim_aware&utm_content=oo-seaport-10123&mstk=AUtExfCfLth68GKOQHLspv78wLXIpgREht_W4P2FoR7JdBxoGSY0EDC3otTn2b9ISDWlE7rI6B3aDgkk4IGoLOroy6wf6iXDCgkGCs9P7RxEZTAODnj2pmRYrEDiku2M90Bsn8JW5XyDBMiwpovVeDvEXpDuumix33a0WbpGlXBOMh8M1oMNyc1WLz1s33Fx6YFKLpEGzFmA3u46GZbYko85d9_yaz_u0CWMr_YyJwxVGIS-kquvZy9Berzm2_aFnevC1499qMgXnb16_SovgQNoOaZGeluu5XnS1ir57_k1Uef_nTwz4AKRB2H_bKVtaaBa1lNlNszJXw13Mg&csuir=1

Edited June 24 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I like Bannister, but all this focus on overhauling pitching seems like a no-win game as the Sox were very good at that previously and so, while there's always room to improve I feel there was more low hanging fruit to tackle.

Also, this is just PR fluff. The Sox are selling you how much they're changing while their results are as bad as the game has ever seen. It's a new angle to sell hope when at rock bottom.

Edited June 24 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[GreenSox]

Until watching this, I hadn’t realized that Brian is Floyd’s son.  So cool!

After years of Impecunious owners, EE and JR took over and signed Floyd Bannister and Carlton Fisk and we were rolling!   Still have my “Winnin’ Ugly is Beautiful” poster hanging in the house. 

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Until watching this, I hadn’t realized that Brian is Floyd’s son.  So cool!

After years of Impecunious owners, EE and JR took over and signed Floyd Bannister and Carlton Fisk and we were rolling!   Still have my “Winnin’ Ugly is Beautiful” poster hanging in the house. 

They even incurred the wrath of Steinbrenner after they signed Bannister (who the Yankees badly wanted) saying he regretted having voted against Edward DeBartolo. 

[Boopa1219]

6 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I like Bannister, but all this focus on overhauling pitching seems like a no-win game as the Sox were very good at that previously and so, while there's always room to improve I feel there was more low hanging fruit to tackle.

Also, this is just PR fluff. The Sox are selling you how much they're changing while their results are as bad as the game has ever seen. It's a new angle to sell hope when at rock bottom.

Some people choose to be miserable. It applied to my ex girlfriend, it applies to Soxtalk. I don’t get it.

People on here have been clamoring for the Sox to tear it down, and they are. People on here have been clamoring for them to build out their own analytic staff, and they are. People have been clamoring for them to hire people from outside the org, and they are. And you’re still unhappy. I don’t understand it.

Edited June 25 by Boopa1219

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 hours ago, Boopa1219 said:

Some people choose to be miserable. It applied to my ex girlfriend, it applies to Soxtalk. I don’t get it.

People on here have been clamoring for the Sox to tear it down, and they are. People on here have been clamoring for them to build out their own analytic staff, and they are. People have been clamoring for them to hire people from outside the org, and they are. And you’re still unhappy. I don’t understand it.

The Sox have sold this narrative before. I'm not miserable, I'm simply realistic. They released a ton of "modernize the org" articles a few years back.

The man thanks Jerry for everything 5 minutes into the interview.

I'm happy to break down why the things discussed in the video aren't ground breaking.

I have never wanted the Sox to become the Pittsburgh Pirates and why you think anything that has happened in the past three years is positive is beyond me. I never clamored for the Sox to become the cheapest organization in pro sports. I certainly didn't clamor for them to act the way they have been. 

You're watching a fluff podcast put out by the team on their own sports network and then you're offended when that's called out. 

If you want to be excited about "cleaning up data and putting it in the cloud" then so be it. Also, it's undeniable that the Sox best area before was pitching development. It was not the area that needed a significant overhaul. The Sox have produced more pitching WAR than almost any team in baseball over the past 20 years. 

Edited June 25 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Chicago White Sox]

12 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I like Bannister, but all this focus on overhauling pitching seems like a no-win game as the Sox were very good at that previously and so, while there's always room to improve I feel there was more low hanging fruit to tackle.

Also, this is just PR fluff. The Sox are selling you how much they're changing while their results are as bad as the game has ever seen. It's a new angle to sell hope when at rock bottom.

Disagree with pretty much everything in this post.  How were they good at pitching overhauls previously?  Show some receipts and tangible actions that suggest they were even close to league average in this area prior to Bannister and the various foundational overhauls they have implemented since Getz took over.

Did you even watch the video?  One of the first things that Bannister mentions is how they had to completely revamp the R&D department because everything was broken.  Data itself wasn’t clean and definitions weren’t aligned upon, it wasn’t it in the cloud and easily accessible, and it wasn’t be used throughout all groups as part of the broader decision-making process.  Fixing these issues is the definition of addressing low hanging fruit and helps not only hitting, but hitting & fielding as well.

Lastly, saying all these foundational improvements are just PR fluff because they haven’t immediately impacted our W-L record is silly.  No doubt there is a PR angle to touting one’s horn, but fixing our foundations is the single most important thing needed to right this ship in the long-run and it’s all we should really care about at the moment other than Jerry’s reign of terror ending.  But if you’re actually paying attention, you can see signs of better process baring some fruit.  Again, it won’t immediately change our W-L record because we are basically starting from zero, but that doesn’t mean it’s not vitally important or actually working.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox have sold this narrative before. I'm not miserable, I'm simply realistic. They released a ton of "modernize the org" articles a few years back.

The man thanks Jerry for everything 5 minutes into the interview.

I'm happy to break down why the things discussed in the video aren't ground breaking.

I have never wanted the Sox to become the Pittsburgh Pirates and why you think anything that has happened in the past three years is positive is beyond me. I never clamored for the Sox to become the cheapest organization in pro sports. I certainly didn't clamor for them to act the way they have been. 

You're watching a fluff podcast put out by the team on their own sports network and then you're offended when that's called out. 

If you want to be excited about "cleaning up data and putting it in the cloud" then so be it. Also, it's undeniable that the Sox best area before was pitching development. It was not the area that needed a significant overhaul. The Sox have produced more pitching WAR than almost any team in baseball over the past 20 years. 

Having analytical data that isn’t clean and aligned up is a massive problem.  Having your data not in the cloud and easily accessible is a massive problem.  Not having all your groups leverage analytics as part of their decision making process because they all operate in silos is a massive problem.  You say that we should address low hanging fruit…well this is a huge part of it.  Let’s not undervalue all the things we were doing wrong that ultimately led us to be the worst team in baseball history.

[DFAthewave69420]

Coworker played with a guy who spent some time in the Sox Org about 4 years back.  Said their bullpens in Spring Training were "throw a fastball", "throw a curveball", and the Staff would just use their eyes and take notes.  No data whatsover. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Disagree with pretty much everything in this post.  How were they good at pitching overhauls previously?  Show some receipts and tangible actions that suggest they were even close to league average in this area prior to Bannister and the various foundational overhauls they have implemented since Getz took over.

Did you even watch the video?  One of the first things that Bannister mentions is how they had to completely revamp the R&D department because everything was broken.  Data itself wasn’t clean and definitions weren’t aligned upon, it wasn’t it in the cloud and easily accessible, and it wasn’t be used throughout all groups as part of the broader decision-making process.  Fixing these issues is the definition of addressing low hanging fruit and helps not only hitting, but hitting & fielding as well.

Lastly, saying all these foundational improvements are just PR fluff because they haven’t immediately impacted our W-L record is silly.  No doubt there is a PR angle to touting one’s horn, but fixing our foundations is the single most important thing needed to right this ship in the long-run and it’s all we should really care about at the moment other than Jerry’s reign of terror ending.  But if you’re actually paying attention, you can see signs of better process baring some fruit.  Again, it won’t immediately change our W-L record because we are basically starting from zero, but that doesn’t mean it’s not vitally important or actually working.

How were they good at pitching overhauls? Huh?

I haven't run this data in a while, but the White Sox were #1 in baseball in pitching WAR originating from the organization (meaning pitchers who were called up from the minors to the Sox or guys who were a part of the Sox minor league system and left) as of my last check on this (which was sometime last year) over the 20 year window reviewed. I'm not sure what you're expecting, but even if they fell back into the 3-5 range, they were still one of the very best teams in the game at developing and outputting pitching success and it wasn't just starters. 

They are absolutely PR fluff. The things cited around R&D, but most specifically data was frankly meaningless. The advantage of data adaptation in baseball is around proprietary models and robust predictive analytics, and saying you "cleaned up the data and moved it to the cloud" in no way implies advanced modeling. When he was asked to define an edge-area for the Sox, he was able to provide the specific edge for the Giants and the Red Sox but frankly provided nothing of substance/meaning for the White Sox. While cleaning up the data is a nice start, it is a long cry from leveraging data in a strategic and unique way. In fact, the thing they cited as their focal point within the offensive data (zone command, swing decisions etc) isn't some under-valued market gap and has resulted in the White Sox having the 2nd worst offense in MLB.

I said it before and I'll say it again, copying what others are doing will always result in you being behind the times. The Sox had shown one ability previously, which was to produce high quality pitching, so while I like Brian a lot (As I've noted before, I know Brian from his San Francisco days and have known him for a long time), there's not much results-room to grow in the pitching space and offensively the White Sox have shown zero reason to believe they have changed/improved.

Edited June 25 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

50 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Having analytical data that isn’t clean and aligned up is a massive problem.  Having your data not in the cloud and easily accessible is a massive problem.  Not having all your groups leverage analytics as part of their decision making process because they all operate in silos is a massive problem.  You say that we should address low hanging fruit…well this is a huge part of it.  Let’s not undervalue all the things we were doing wrong that ultimately led us to be the worst team in baseball history.

The problem is moving data to a cloud doesn't actually improve outcomes in anyway. It's merely a way to provide access to the information, which in theory can provide you with more opportunities but as someone who has worked through many-of-these types of moves, it's not worthy of celebrating or citing as a large advancement. Properly defining the data also has value, but only if you can derive meaningful outputs from the data.

The White Sox have not shown that ability under Chris Getz, in my opinion, and therefore I don't place much value in data consolidation.

Data is everywhere in 2025, and people love to cite it's value without providing proof of concept. So while it's great the Sox have fixed their DBMS and gotten data aligned, they haven't shown any examples of getting value from that data.

[southsider2k5]

35 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How were they good at pitching overhauls? Huh?

I haven't run this data in a while, but the White Sox were #1 in baseball in pitching WAR originating from the organization (meaning pitchers who were called up from the minors to the Sox or guys who were a part of the Sox minor league system and left) as of my last check on this (which was sometime last year) over the 20 year window reviewed. I'm not sure what you're expecting, but even if they fell back into the 3-5 range, they were still one of the very best teams in the game at developing and outputting pitching success and it wasn't just starters. 

They are absolutely PR fluff. The things cited around R&D, but most specifically data was frankly meaningless. The advantage of data adaptation in baseball is around proprietary models and robust predictive analytics, and saying you "cleaned up the data and moved it to the cloud" in no way implies advanced modeling. When he was asked to define an edge-area for the Sox, he was able to provide the specific edge for the Giants and the Red Sox but frankly provided nothing of substance/meaning for the White Sox. While cleaning up the data is a nice start, it is a long cry from leveraging data in a strategic and unique way. In fact, the thing they cited as their focal point within the offensive data (zone command, swing decisions etc) isn't some under-valued market gap and has resulted in the White Sox having the 2nd worst offense in MLB.

I said it before and I'll say it again, copying what others are doing will always result in you being behind the times. The Sox had shown one ability previously, which was to produce high quality pitching, so while I like Brian a lot (As I've noted before, I know Brian from his San Francisco days and have known him for a long time), there's not much results-room to grow in the pitching space and offensively the White Sox have shown zero reason to believe they have changed/improved.

In fact, in the short term we have seen a massive injury spike, which we did not see previously, which is exactly what allowed our pitching to be so successful.  Our starters were out there almost every day.  That's not the case anymore, so while maybe we get more out of our starters, we are also more often pitching our #10 starter, or some dude off of the street, so I am not sure net/net that this is a positive to this point.  Again, we obviously need to see if this is the new normal or not for injuries, but early returns are not all positive.

[fathom]

I also don’t get overly excited that Smith was allowed to pitch with poor mechanics for a few months, which led to some soreness.   Seems like something that could have been worked on in ST, where he looked off as well.

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, fathom said:

I also don’t get overly excited that Smith was allowed to pitch with poor mechanics for a few months, which led to some soreness.   Seems like something that could have been worked on in ST, where he looked off as well.

Players who have been successful their entire lives doing things one way are very resistant to change until they run into lack if success or another issue like an injury.

Players aren't going to change anything while they are being successful no matter what any person or data tells them.

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, fathom said:

I also don’t get overly excited that Smith was allowed to pitch with poor mechanics for a few months, which led to some soreness.   Seems like something that could have been worked on in ST, where he looked off as well.

And that got really quiet, really quickly.  It was odd to say the least.

[Chicago White Sox]

52 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How were they good at pitching overhauls? Huh?

I haven't run this data in a while, but the White Sox were #1 in baseball in pitching WAR originating from the organization (meaning pitchers who were called up from the minors to the Sox or guys who were a part of the Sox minor league system and left) as of my last check on this (which was sometime last year) over the 20 year window reviewed. I'm not sure what you're expecting, but even if they fell back into the 3-5 range, they were still one of the very best teams in the game at developing and outputting pitching success and it wasn't just starters. 

They are absolutely PR fluff. The things cited around R&D, but most specifically data was frankly meaningless. The advantage of data adaptation in baseball is around proprietary models and robust predictive analytics, and saying you "cleaned up the data and moved it to the cloud" in no way implies advanced modeling. When he was asked to define an edge-area for the Sox, he was able to provide the specific edge for the Giants and the Red Sox but frankly provided nothing of substance/meaning for the White Sox. While cleaning up the data is a nice start, it is a long cry from leveraging data in a strategic and unique way. In fact, the thing they cited as their focal point within the offensive data (zone command, swing decisions etc) isn't some under-valued market gap and has resulted in the White Sox having the 2nd worst offense in MLB.

I said it before and I'll say it again, copying what others are doing will always result in you being behind the times. The Sox had shown one ability previously, which was to produce high quality pitching, so while I like Brian a lot (As I've noted before, I know Brian from his San Francisco days and have known him for a long time), there's not much results-room to grow in the pitching space and offensively the White Sox have shown zero reason to believe they have changed/improved.

You are missing the forest from the trees here man.  “Copying what others are doing” is 100% without question what we need to be doing.  Will that make us a best in class organization?  f*** no.  Will it give us an edge over others?  Definitely not.  But it will quickly bring us out of the god damn Stone Age that we were stuck in under Hahn.  You have to start somewhere and getting your basic foundations in place is the first step towards righting the ship long-term.  Going from being completely incompetent to just below average would be a massive improvement.

As for your pitching analysis, using a 20 year sample to highlight our capabilities as of late is completely flawed.  20 years ago pitching labs and biomechanics were barely a thing and have obviously grown in prominence over time.  So much of the value that you are citing is likely driven by a single draft pick that was selected and developed by a different group of people using different processes (ones that were likely more up-to-date at the time).  Change your sample to players added in the past 10 years and tell me where we rank.  Hell, make it five and tell me where we rank.  We are well fucking past the Don Cooper & Herm Schneider glory days.

And let me be clear here, there is certainly a PR angle at play here.  I’m not a fool who believes everything Getz says and I know there is an intrinsic motivation for him to hype up all the behind the scenes stuff.  But that doesn’t change the fact that they are actually trying to modernize the org by bringing in external ideas, best practices, and people.  Again, that won’t solve all our problems, but it should materially bridge the gap between us and most other orgs outside of probably the Rockies.  And if we can be even be in the realm of acceptability, there is a chance even a mediocre GM can get lucky and put together a competitive team.  But until the basics are in place, the current nightmare we are enduring will never end.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The problem is moving data to a cloud doesn't actually improve outcomes in anyway. It's merely a way to provide access to the information, which in theory can provide you with more opportunities but as someone who has worked through many-of-these types of moves, it's not worthy of celebrating or citing as a large advancement. Properly defining the data also has value, but only if you can derive meaningful outputs from the data.

The White Sox have not shown that ability under Chris Getz, in my opinion, and therefore I don't place much value in data consolidation.

Data is everywhere in 2025, and people love to cite its value without providing proof of concept. So while it's great the Sox have fixed their DBMS and gotten data aligned, they haven't shown any examples of getting value from that data.

Having data available to your hitting, pitching, & development coaches in real time is incredible valuable.  Having clean data and aligned definitions on said metrics is critical for it to be used consistently and accurately.  These are basic requirements to be a competent organization which we are not.  We need to keep pushing to get to the cutting edge if we want to be great, but for now I just don’t want to be the worst org in all of major sports and by wide margin.  These are just baby steps but 100% necessary ones.  I will certainly not try to sell you that Getz’s vision will get us to promise land because I need to see some actual on-field results before I believe he’s doing anything more than addressing low hanging fruit.  However, I truly believe what Getz is doing is actually legitimate and vastly different in scope than the bullshit Hahn claimed he was doing to modernize the org.

[chitownsportsfan]

11 hours ago, Boopa1219 said:

Some people choose to be miserable. It applied to my ex girlfriend, it applies to Soxtalk. I don’t get it.

People on here have been clamoring for the Sox to tear it down, and they are. People on here have been clamoring for them to build out their own analytic staff, and they are. People have been clamoring for them to hire people from outside the org, and they are. And you’re still unhappy. I don’t understand it.

On pace for 118 losses after setting record last year. Show me White Sox.