Being bad doesn't = Rebuilding

[Tony]

17 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Losing is a habit.  We will never see the Pirates or A's ever be good either.  Sure some teams can have a year or two of success but to sustain that is not always the small market.  

 With 2027 being a ? I don't see owners spending big.  

I'd put it another way. 

"Losing is a choice" 

The White Sox, Pirates, A's...if you gave their owners a lie detector test and asked them if they wanted to win, I believe all would answer yes, and they'd be telling the truth. I think every owner wants to win. But in the case of the teams listed out...winning is not their main priority, and it's viewed as a "nice to have, not need to have" 

Being an owner of a professional sports franchise is an incredibly lucrative investment, no matter where you finish in the standings. That's the easy part. The hard part is the willingness to make capital investments in scouting, talent acquisition, player development, etc. And when you have 29 other teams trying hiring from a very similar pool of qualified candidates, it becomes challenging and often times expensive. Owners then have to make a choice. "Do I want to find the best candidate for the job? Do I want to invest X amount of millions in a Latin American complex? Do I want to outbid my rival on Free Agent X?" Those choices are everything, and unfortunately we know how Jerry chooses to answer them. 

[WestEddy]

3 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

The last point … I knew the last rebuild would never work because no one was fired but it (and frankly the franchise) was doomed to failure the minute they screwed around with Harper with no intention of signing him.  A guy who would have been an historic franchise player, affordable by today’s standards.  Once they played their games this entire franchise was exposed.

(Of course you could go back further still, Navarro instead of Clemens for example.)

Signing Harper could have given Hahn some massive success.  Once the other hand this franchise is where stars come to die so Harper probably would have been a replacement level player had he signed with the Sox.

Wait, signing Harper would have made TA not drop off the table? Harper would have kept Yoan, Robert and Eloy healthy and on the field? Signing Harper would have made Wheeler's wife remember she also had family in Chicago? 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Wait, signing Harper would have made TA not drop off the table? Harper would have kept Yoan, Robert and Eloy healthy and on the field? Signing Harper would have made Wheeler's wife remember she also had family in Chicago? 

Since everyone who failed was the fault of Rick Hahn and his lack of investment into grinders, maybe a true grinder could have fixed all of them?  Apparently all you have to do is see someone demonstrate work ethic, and everything else fixes itself.

[chitownsportsfan]

Anybody remember larry from SSS? Anyways, here's what he'd post:

[Quin]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It sucks to say it, and it's a shitty thing to experience as a fan. 

The Sox used to live in a pretty nice house. It wasn't the best house, but it had it's moments and memories. It had some serious flaws with it's foundation, and some plumbing challenges which needed repair, but they spent to money on upgrading the kitchen and entertainment room for cosmetic reasons. The core issues needed repair. Chris Getz came in, blew the entire house up, replaced it with a 300 sq foot one story house made of plywood. All his supporters are yelling about how he fixed the foundation and it's not leaking anymore... It's madness.

The Barons are the car.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

The Barons are the car.

Ha, I was just going to say the car is a 1955 pick up truck with the bed rusted out of it.

[Bob Sacamano]

39 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Since everyone who failed was the fault of Rick Hahn and his lack of investment into grinders, maybe a true grinder could have fixed all of them?  Apparently all you have to do is see someone demonstrate work ethic, and everything else fixes itself.

Maybe guys would have actually wanted to play through their boo-boos and worked harder.

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

Sox have bad luck with career NL players.   Plus if you have a superstar they need to be complimented with quality players.  

At the time, 2019 or so, they had some quality hitters.  Couldn’t really stay healthy but maybe there is a world where they take their health more seriously in a serious organization.

But you are right about NL players.  I was one of the idiots who thought Dunn would be a good compliment to the rest of the hitters the Sox had.  Mea culpa.  Who else has there been?  Grandal?  Rios was a bum but he came from Toronto.  The third baseman that played for the Reds (can’t think of his name.)

[Kyyle23]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Wait, signing Harper would have made TA not drop off the table? Harper would have kept Yoan, Robert and Eloy healthy and on the field? Signing Harper would have made Wheeler's wife remember she also had family in Chicago? 

If Harper signed with the Sox it would have coincided with Andersons run as one of the better hitting shortstops in the league for the first 3 seasons of that contract.  Who knows what happens with any of them, maybe Harper gets the injury bug that got all of them, maybe guys like Eloy avoid those stupid injuries, maybe everything stays static and the Sox have their run Peter out as fast as it came about.  The point is, they didn’t invest in one of the best players in the league who is also a clubhouse leader, and wanted to come to the White Sox.  They pretended to make an effort to sign him, and that’s worse because that is a stain on the organization around the league.  Not that Jerry cares about any of that 

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I keep reading that the Sox are rebuilding so their record doesn't matter. The White Sox are not rebuilding, they're simply bad. 

The White Sox are one of the laughing stocks of baseball, yet some fans believe their used car salesman GM that he's turning the organization around.

The White Sox organization and fan base is dying, but some here love the direction the team is heading. It's is absolutely fascinating. 

The Sox are like Baltimore was when the O's stunk every year. You could just pencil them in for last place. The advent of advanced stats and tanking got the expert fans convinced the Sox were doing the right thing. In reality we all should just listen to Lip of this board. Sox are in it for one reason, to make money for the investors, and the product on the field certainly doesn't matter to anybody in ownership. And under Jerry's leadership, pocketbook, Sox will remain last til the new owners take over. Frankly the Sox should just book the Bananas for 10-20 games a summer and pack the place every night. This season-ending losing thing is wild. Sox are dropping a lot of games.

Edited September 26 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

Losing is a habit.  We will never see the Pirates or A's ever be good either.  Sure some teams can have a year or two of success but to sustain that is not always the small market.  

 With 2027 being a ? I don't see owners spending big.  

This is why having a producting drafting AND development system in place is so important.  We have seen low payroll teams have varying levels of success, but the ones that are the most successful do the best jobs at selling high and developing their own cheap talent.  We can't exist through trading our stars for talent being the only source of developed talent in our majors.

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

If Harper signed with the Sox it would have coincided with Andersons run as one of the better hitting shortstops in the league for the first 3 seasons of that contract.  Who knows what happens with any of them, maybe Harper gets the injury bug that got all of them, maybe guys like Eloy avoid those stupid injuries, maybe everything stays static and the Sox have their run Peter out as fast as it came about.  The point is, they didn’t invest in one of the best players in the league who is also a clubhouse leader, and wanted to come to the White Sox.  They pretended to make an effort to sign him, and that’s worse because that is a stain on the organization around the league.  Not that Jerry cares about any of that 

Not to mention that entire group was putting up good to great numbers, and then for some reason it all fell apart for some odd reason right about the time someone decided Ricky wasn't the guy to get them from point B to C, and instead went into the toilet.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, wegner said:

It is just sad for a major league baseball team to be this bad.

Nobody could complain if the Sox were contracted. Not trying to win would be the accusation that caused a harsh penalty of contraction. But no admonishment to Jerry from the commish office. All quiet. Sad the Sox aren't publicly reprimanded for such ineptitude.

[Ducksnort]

7 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I keep reading that the Sox are rebuilding so their record doesn't matter. The White Sox are not rebuilding, they're simply bad. 

Baseball has changed dramatically, and while people keep pointing to the Astros as a case of a team who was very bad and got good, they share nothing in common with the current White Sox.

During the Astros "rebuild" years, they were able to draft at the top of the draft every one - unlike today. During the Astros rebuild, they had a top 10 farm system in baseball from 2012 to 2019! Seven straight years, with 4 being in the top 5. The White Sox, who have the 2nd worst record in baseball, don't even have a top 15 system today. 

Plenty of teams are just bad, and the majority of teams who are really bad don't become very good with those group of players. 

The White Sox are one of the laughing stocks of baseball, yet some fans believe their used car salesman GM that he's turning the organization around.

Lastly, people claiming the Sox stopped spending on players so they could reallocate resources crack me up. The cost of the things the Sox have invested in are likely less than 5 million dollars total. Not even the cost of one player. 

The White Sox organization and fan base is dying, but some here love the direction the team is heading. It's is absolutely fascinating. To all the rebuild claimers, what are the White Sox rebuilding around? What is their edge in the market? What advantage do they have? The answer to anyone who is being honest is nothing.

 

Here's my take on this:

-It is incredibly annoying to hear the analysts, and the LEADERS OF THE ORGANIZATION say that the record doesn't matter. It absolutely matters and that is a shitty message to be sending to the players of the entire organization.

-I agree the Astros rebuild and the Sox rebuild are not apples to apples. It took the Astros one rebuild to start winning world series, that was over 10 years ago, and they've been consistently in the conversation for championship contention ever since. The Sox had one failed rebuild, where they made the post season one time and lost in the first round. Now they are on their 2nd rebuild. 

-Yes, the White Sox have had some really good players on their rosters during their rebuilding years. Especially pitchers, who are currently spread across the league and all on good teams that are going to the post season (Crochet, Giolito, Cease, Rodon, Quintana, probably others). The Sox were not able to win with them.

-I disagree the organization and fanbase is dying. I went to a few games this year. The org and fanbase is very much alive. Sox park is still a very fun place to be, despite the losing. But, a winning team would put the ballpark experience up with the top 5 in baseball. We all know how electric the Southside is when the team is good. Especially in October.

-The reality is, there are some pretty good players on the current team and in the minor league system. But, the other part to that reality is recent history will show the organization doesn't know how to build wins with those players. So I am very skeptical that they will be able to pull it together even with new management, advisors, directors, etc. 

[77 Hitmen]

7 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I keep reading that the Sox are rebuilding so their record doesn't matter. The White Sox are not rebuilding, they're simply bad. 

Baseball has changed dramatically, and while people keep pointing to the Astros as a case of a team who was very bad and got good, they share nothing in common with the current White Sox.

During the Astros "rebuild" years, they were able to draft at the top of the draft every one - unlike today. During the Astros rebuild, they had a top 10 farm system in baseball from 2012 to 2019! Seven straight years, with 4 being in the top 5. The White Sox, who have the 2nd worst record in baseball, don't even have a top 15 system today. 

Plenty of teams are just bad, and the majority of teams who are really bad don't become very good with those group of players. 

The White Sox are one of the laughing stocks of baseball, yet some fans believe their used car salesman GM that he's turning the organization around.

Lastly, people claiming the Sox stopped spending on players so they could reallocate resources crack me up. The cost of the things the Sox have invested in are likely less than 5 million dollars total. Not even the cost of one player. 

The White Sox organization and fan base is dying, but some here love the direction the team is heading. It's is absolutely fascinating. To all the rebuild claimers, what are the White Sox rebuilding around? What is their edge in the market? What advantage do they have? The answer to anyone who is being honest is nothing.

 

"Hey, losing 100+ games for several seasons worked for the Astros, **THEREFORE** it could very well work for the Sox" is not exactly a good game plan for a professional baseball organization.

To your last point, the new owners when they (eventually) take over will have their work cut out for them.  You know what's worse than having a bunch of angry fans?  A bunch of apathetic fans, and that's where the Sox are right now.  People like to think there's this vast army of Sox fans sitting at home ready to come back in droves and pack Rate Field night after night as soon as they return to playoff contention.  I don't think that's quite the case.  It's going to take more than just a few wild card and perhaps even AL Central titles followed by early playoff exits to really change the trajectory of the Sox market share in Chicagoland.

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

If Harper signed with the Sox it would have coincided with Andersons run as one of the better hitting shortstops in the league for the first 3 seasons of that contract.  Who knows what happens with any of them, maybe Harper gets the injury bug that got all of them, maybe guys like Eloy avoid those stupid injuries, maybe everything stays static and the Sox have their run Peter out as fast as it came about.  The point is, they didn’t invest in one of the best players in the league who is also a clubhouse leader, and wanted to come to the White Sox.  They pretended to make an effort to sign him, and that’s worse because that is a stain on the organization around the league.  Not that Jerry cares about any of that 

I agree they should have signed Harper. I think that team still falls apart. 

[greg775]

11 minutes ago, Ducksnort said:

I disagree the organization and fanbase is dying. I went to a few games this year. The org and fanbase is very much alive. Sox park is still a very fun place to be, despite the losing.

And yet the Bananas packed the park twice. Sox had what, one sellout? Book more Banana ballgames, Sox!

Edited September 26 by greg775

[77 Hitmen]

15 minutes ago, Ducksnort said:

 

-I disagree the organization and fanbase is dying. I went to a few games this year. The org and fanbase is very much alive. Sox park is still a very fun place to be, despite the losing. But, a winning team would put the ballpark experience up with the top 5 in baseball. We all know how electric the Southside is when the team is good. Especially in October.

 

Top 5 ballpark experiences in MLB compared to experiences at other ballparks then those franchises are fielding a winning team?   Sure, winning is fun and exciting no matter where you are and I would have an absolute blast at the ballpark if the Sox were pennant-bound, but I have a really hard time believing the experience at Rate Field is anywhere near top 5 in baseball.  

IMO, when the A's and Rays finally open their new ballparks, many people outside the Sox fan base will rank the Rate Field ballpark experience around 28 or 29th.  I know saying this will anger some Sox fans, but it's the cold, hard truth.

Edited September 26 by 77 Hitmen

[almagest]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Since everyone who failed was the fault of Rick Hahn and his lack of investment into grinders

Here you come, absolving Slick Rick Hahn of any blame again.

[Ducksnort]

9 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Top 5 ballpark experiences in MLB compared to experiences at other ballparks then those franchises are fielding a winning team?   Sure, winning is fun and exciting no matter where you are and I would have an absolute blast at the ballpark if the Sox were pennant-bound, but I have a really hard time believing the experience at Rate Field is anywhere near top 5 in baseball.  

IMO, when the A's and Rays finally open their new ballparks, many people outside the Sox fan base will rank the Rate Field ballpark experience around 28 or 29th.  I know saying this will anger some Sox fans, but it's the cold, hard truth.

Okay, top 10. My point was it is a great experience during winning times. 

[almagest]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It sucks to say it, and it's a shitty thing to experience as a fan. 

The Sox used to live in a pretty nice house. It wasn't the best house, but it had it's moments and memories. It had some serious flaws with it's foundation, and some plumbing challenges which needed repair, but they spent to money on upgrading the kitchen and entertainment room for cosmetic reasons. The core issues needed repair. Chris Getz came in, blew the entire house up, replaced it with a 300 sq foot one story house made of plywood. All his supporters are yelling about how he fixed the foundation and it's not leaking anymore... It's madness.

That "nice house" hasn't existed since like 2008. It was a run down dump with a lavish pool in the backyard for over a decade, and then they completely replaced the structure of the house without taking care of the massive sinkhole underneath the foundation. We're in the sinkhole now, trying to fill the ground in so they can build again.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, almagest said:

That "nice house" hasn't existed since like 2008. It was a run down dump with a lavish pool in the backyard for over a decade, and then they completely replaced the structure of the house without taking care of the massive sinkhole underneath the foundation. We're in the sinkhole now, trying to fill the ground in so they can build again.

Nah, there is no sinkhole!  This is exactly how a real house looks!  

[Quin]

Let's think of it this way / why there's less hope for this vs. past rebuilds for teams.

1) Won't rehash the Hagen Smith vs. position players debate, but it does not inspire confidence. He did pick it up at the end, which helps ease the mind a bit.

2) This headline from BA is great: Scouting Roch Cholowsky: Most Complete College SS In A Decade? 

The Sox only have a 27% chance of getting him. The Twins have a 17% chance. Obviously the MLB #1 pick isn't as monumental as the NBA or NFL, but when you consider the bonus pool, it'll really suck if they miss the #1.
 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

Let's think of it this way / why there's less hope for this vs. past rebuilds for teams.

1) Won't rehash the Hagen Smith vs. position players debate, but it does not inspire confidence. He did pick it up at the end, which helps ease the mind a bit.

2) This headline from BA is great: Scouting Roch Cholowsky: Most Complete College SS In A Decade? 

The Sox only have a 27% chance of getting him. The Twins have a 17% chance. Obviously the MLB #1 pick isn't as monumental as the NBA or NFL, but when you consider the bonus pool, it'll really suck if they miss the #1.
 

If this had been 10 years ago the Sox would have already had the 4th pick in the 24 draft, the #1 pick in the 25 draft, and be on their way to the #2 pick in 2026.

Instead we got 5th, 10th and TBA.

[77 Hitmen]

1 hour ago, Ducksnort said:

Okay, top 10. My point was it is a great experience during winning times. 

I do miss those times.   Since 2005, even when the team is good, they really seemed like underachievers.  In the 3 seasons they made the playoffs since 2005:

2008:  Had a 6 game lead in June and a 2.5 game lead on Sept. 21, choked it away and needed the Blackout Game to salvage the division title.  
2020:  Had a 3 game lead with 8 games remaining and blew it and had to settle for a wild card.
2021:  Played only slightly above .500 in the 2nd half and looked like the weakest of the 10 playoff teams heading into the post-season.