Competitors for the open bullpen slot

[Jordan4life_2007]

Cabrera with a terrible outing today, he has no chance of making the opening day roster.

 

And shame on anybody who thought he had a chance in hell before the spring started. He's AAA filler. Nothing more.

 

[Heads22]

Greg Aquino and Sergio Santos appear to be the early leaders.

[Quin]

Greg Aquino and Sergio Santos appear to be the early leaders.

 

I'm rooting for Santos, for 3 reasons.

 

1) I think he'll do well

2) With ESPN talking about him, it will be harder to pass him through waivers.

3) His name is awesome.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I'm rooting for Santos, for 3 reasons.

 

1) I think he'll do well

2) With ESPN talking about him, it will be harder to pass him through waivers.

3) His name is awesome.

 

Don't forget he is a good story, and a 2-minute story on ESPN waiting to happen.

[beck72]

Santos may be able to give the sox an inning at a time. But the sox need a guy who can throw 2-3 innings a pop, keep them in the game, filling the role similar to what Carrasco did last year [though not for 4-5 innings when Colon and Jose blew up]. The Sox likely won't need a true long man, but a guy who can go multiple innings. Santos isn't reliable yet and needs work still to get to that point. IMO, nothing short of perfection in 15+ innings should keep him from going through the waiver process. The sox aren't in the business of letting their bullpen guys get on the job training at the major league level, which is what Santos would require. One spring isn't going to cut it.

 

If the sox are intent on keeping Hudson in AAA as a SP, then Torres likely is the last man. He's shown he can get outs at the major league level. Right now, I'd say Torres and even Greg Aquino are ahead of Santos. Aquino has looked sharp from what I've seen, throwing strikes with some good stuff. The sox look like they're trying to stretch him out.

Edited March 14, 2010 by beck72

[Dick Allen]

Torres has to be the odd on favorite here if Hudson is destined for AAA. You need someone who can give you multiple innings, and to be the lamb during blowouts. Garbage time is the right time for Mr. Torres. He fills Nick Massett's old role.

 

I did vote for someone outside the organization. I still think they may try to get another guy, especially with Jenks hurting and behind.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Torres has to be the odd on favorite here if Hudson is destined for AAA. You need someone who can give you multiple innings, and to be the lamb during blowouts. Garbage time is the right time for Mr. Torres. He fills Nick Massett's old role.

 

I did vote for someone outside the organization. I still think they may try to get another guy, especially with Jenks hurting and behind.

We'll win more games if Santos can stay up as a reliable reliever who can be used fairly regularly than we will if Torres stays up to cover those 1-2 games where we desperately need a long reliever.

[southsider2k5]

And shame on anybody who thought he had a chance in hell before the spring started. He's AAA filler. Nothing more.

 

Phil Rogers said he is only hitting 90 on the gun. That makes a big difference.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Phil Rogers said he is only hitting 90 on the gun. That makes a big difference.

 

He could be hitting 99 for all I care. He's sporting a WHIP of over 1.6 the last 4 years. He's hot garbage.

[Kalapse]

Santos may be able to give the sox an inning at a time. But the sox need a guy who can throw 2-3 innings a pop, keep them in the game, filling the role similar to what Carrasco did last year [though not for 4-5 innings when Colon and Jose blew up]. The Sox likely won't need a true long man, but a guy who can go multiple innings. Santos isn't reliable yet and needs work still to get to that point. IMO, nothing short of perfection in 15+ innings should keep him from going through the waiver process. The sox aren't in the business of letting their bullpen guys get on the job training at the major league level, which is what Santos would require. One spring isn't going to cut it.

 

If the sox are intent on keeping Hudson in AAA as a SP, then Torres likely is the last man. He's shown he can get outs at the major league level. Right now, I'd say Torres and even Greg Aquino are ahead of Santos. Aquino has looked sharp from what I've seen, throwing strikes with some good stuff. The sox look like they're trying to stretch him out.

Carrasco gave the Sox 3+ innings 9 times last year, 8 of those turned out to be losses.

[NorthSideSox72]

Carrasco gave the Sox 3+ innings 9 times last year, 8 of those turned out to be losses.

You know darn well that if Carrasco is pitching 3+ innings, that means you are in some sort of blow-out. Really, his job is to eat innings and protect the rest of the bullpen. And if he happens to keep you in the games occasionally too, that's a bonus. That role does have value.

 

[Kalapse]

You know darn well that if Carrasco is pitching 3+ innings, that means you are in some sort of blow-out. Really, his job is to eat innings and protect the rest of the bullpen. And if he happens to keep you in the games occasionally too, that's a bonus. That role does have value.

That was kind of the point. If you need 3+ innings he's not going to be able to keep you in the game since you're probably already down big and he's likely to give up a run or 2 himself and if you need 2 innings for whatever reason Pena can give you that with a much greater success rate than Carlos Torres. You're going to have maybe 1 blowout a month where your bullpen has to give you 5+ innings, I'm not going to carry and awful pitcher in Torres and risk losing Santos just for that rare occurrence so he can maybe save Pena, Santos, Williams or Linebrink from having to give you a few innings in the same game. It's a 12 man pen; they can absorb the very rare blowout.

[southsider2k5]

He could be hitting 99 for all I care. He's sporting a WHIP of over 1.6 the last 4 years. He's hot garbage.

 

A guy like that has a lot more value when he is ringing up the gun.

[Heads22]

That was kind of the point. If you need 3+ innings he's not going to be able to keep you in the game since you're probably already down big and he's likely to give up a run or 2 himself and if you need 2 innings for whatever reason Pena can give you that with a much greater success rate than Carlos Torres. You're going to have maybe 1 blowout a month where your bullpen has to give you 5+ innings, I'm not going to carry and awful pitcher in Torres and risk losing Santos just for that rare occurrence so he can maybe save Pena, Santos, Williams or Linebrink from having to give you a few innings in the same game. It's a 12 man pen; they can absorb the very rare blowout.

 

And God willing, those blowouts won't happen as often this year. We've got 5 guys that we should be able to lean on in the rotation.

[Kalapse]

Cabrera's been sitting in the low 90's since midway through the '08 season and progressively losing velocity ever since. His lack of heat should come as a surprise to no one as it's been well documented.

[beck72]

Carrasco gave the Sox 3+ innings 9 times last year, 8 of those turned out to be losses.

Ideally, the long man would keep the other team from scoring and the offense would rally. The sox offense has not been an offense that could rally from a deficit.

[Disco72]

Ideally, the long man would keep the other team from scoring and the offense would rally. The sox offense has not been an offense that could rally from a deficit.

 

So, given that the Sox have a pitching heavy team with an offense that most feel won't be able to rally from a large deficit, wouldn't you rather have the guy that helps you win the (likely more numerable) close games than the handful of blowouts that the Sox have a small shot at coming back to win?

[beck72]

So, given that the Sox have a pitching heavy team with an offense that most feel won't be able to rally from a large deficit, wouldn't you rather have the guy that helps you win the (likely more numerable) close games than the handful of blowouts that the Sox have a small shot at coming back to win?

I don't think it's an "either", "or" situation. The Sox need a bullpen arm who can go multiple innings, given the make up of the current group of vets. That helps the rest of the bullpen by not having them used up. Yet the Sox should also go with the best pitcher. That is why you are seeing guys get stretched out like Aquino, Torres, and Santos.

 

Also, I think the Sox are trying to get a lineup that will more likely come back from deficits-similar to what the Twins offense has done in the past. The Twins have had bullpens that have held teams close while the offense can cut into leads.

[scenario]

Looks like it's becoming a 2-man race between Santos and Aquino.

 

Hudson could be the 3rd man in the race, but the Sox will likely keep him stretched out as a starter in Charlotte.

 

 

[Quin]

Looks like it's becoming a 2-man race between Santos and Aquino.

 

Hudson could be the 3rd man in the race, but the Sox will likely keep him stretched out as a starter in Charlotte.

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...sp&c_id=cws

 

It's down to those 3, but man do I want Santos to beat Aquino for it.

[Kalapse]

Looks like it's becoming a 2-man race between Santos and Aquino.

 

Hudson could be the 3rd man in the race, but the Sox will likely keep him stretched out as a starter in Charlotte.

Ozzie basically said he's headed to Charlotte with quotes like "he needs to go out and pitch" and "we need him ready just in case something happens to a starter." (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

 

Given that Greg Aquino is 32, has already bombed in the majors something like 4 times and is signed to a minor league deal (he can be sent to Charlotte without having to pass through waivers) and Santos is out of options, pitching great and a prized possession of the coaching staff I do believe the competition is all but won.

[southsider2k5]

Ozzie basically said he's headed to Charlotte with quotes like "he needs to go out and pitch" and "we need him ready just in case something happens to a starter." (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

 

Given that Greg Aquino is 32, has already bombed in the majors something like 4 times and is signed to a minor league deal (he can be sent to Charlotte without having to pass through waivers) and Santos is out of options, pitching great and a prized possession of the coaching staff I do believe the competition is all but won.

 

Exactly. In a two horse race, the only way Aquino wins, is if Santos falls apart.

[qwerty]

Pretty much every teams last spot in the pen is nothing more than a rotating door full of terrible production throughout the year. Going into this off-season i was not particularly confident in the bullpen being entirely shored up from the front end to the back end. Now, frighteningly, i actually think i have less confidence than then. Santos is the definition of raw talent, something which he will not be able harness in such a limited period of time. I personally don't give santos a month on the big league roster, and if he is still somehow still around at the all star break, we will all be able to claim that we witnessed a miracle in action. When aquino is your second best option (last spot) you have a problem (big). Basically what it comes down to is a battle to see which piece of s*** smells less. It's terrible. No good reason for it to come down to this.

 

It seems like i have seen very little concern about putz this off-season. Why is this? In my opinion putz is far from a lock to put up good numbers, let alone the possibility of stellar numbers. I will be content if he ends up being just slightly above average at this point. Linkbrink. Enough said. Pena i can potentially see big things out of, but realistically speaking i envision he will be somewhere between slightly above to slightly below average. Hopefully williams gives us a year flash in the pan type year, it would be a big boost to what appears to be a fragile pen. Never under ozzie's reign have both lefties in the pen both had good years. Six full seasons. The last good season the sox got out of a ''loogy'' was 2003, manuel's last season here. Marte's 2005 was terrible despite what looks like a not so terrible era, which was 3.77. For a guy that loves his matchups, it seems kinda odd to me that the loogies have been as bad as they have under him. Really bad. Then again he can only use what is available, which therefore lies on kenny williams shoulders.

 

All in all, the only actual bona fide confidence i have in the pen would be thornton and jenks. Yes, jenks.

 

=============================================================================

 

I was reading over this thread again and i came across this. I don't know why it bothered me... but it did.

 

At the Dodgers 13 inning game, he was overpowering the Dodgers players.

 

If they trade for Gonzalez, I'd try and include some throw ins to get Poreda back. I think he could be a good lefty out the pen.

 

 

Looking at PitchFX data; Poreda threw 13 fastballs in that game (no runners reached base on him so I assume they were all from the windup), the average velocity on his fastball was 92.35 MPH with a max speed of 93.6.

 

For reference: Jenks and Thornton were both clocked at about 95/96 (avg/max) in that same game.

 

 

Eh, I was going by eye, because most people were gone at that point so I went and sat around the plate.

 

Maybe the Dodgers were just tired by that point.

 

Now don't let kalapse make you think otherwise... not that i think he was trying to. Overpowering someone does not just entail high velocity. It goes into much greater detail. Throughout this games history some of the very nastiest and most overpowering pitchers are those who are lucky if they can hit 90 on the radar.

Edited March 18, 2010 by qwerty

[Dick Allen]

Santos has been pitching for less than a year, chances are when the games matter he's not going to be very effective. Maybe that's the Sox plan. Perhaps he couldn't make it through waivers right now. Maybe they throw him into a couple of blowouts and either he pitches well and he builds on it, or he gets lit up or otherwise struggles and gets through waivers more easily.

 

I would bet anyone on this board anything that if Santos and Linebrink each throw 40 innings in the major leagues this season, Linebrink will have the better ERA.

 

This bullpen slot actually may be pretty important if Jenks isn't ready to go. There has to be some concern. The fact that he's now testing out a wind up has to make you wonder if something other than an arm not being built up enough yet is wrong. Maybe it takes a little pressure off his calf.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Dick Allen

[maggsmaggs]

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Aquino has been a bum every major league season since his first one. I don't expect that to change and his mediocre stuff to get better. Because of the reward associated with Santos, I am keeping him, especially with a group of very solid starters who should go six innings each time. Add to that guys like Thornton, Putz, Liney, Pena and Williams are looking solid, I think you can afford to take the risk associated with Santos as the last guy. Also, it's not like Aquino is a Hudson- and Torres-type who can pitch 3-4 innings, Aquino is a 1-2 inning guy like Santos, so being an innings eater doesn't have an affect.