Color me happy!

I agree. If all you can say is he's good at pitch framing then he's just not worth it. It's not like Flowers could wipe out a teams running game like Sal Perez can do.

True but Perez doesn't have magic glasses to enhance his super uber pitch framing abilities!

 

 

True but Perez doesn't have magic glasses to enhance his super uber pitch framing abilities!

Well I mean someone's gota look pretty for the ultimate pitch frame for his baseball card.

The past 3 seasons in 25 AB's with the bases loaded Tyler Flowers has 2 hits, 4 walks and 15K's for a .80/.258/.80 batting line... thats a .338 OPS. Just something fun to throw out there

I wouldn't really say Tyler Flowers has defensive value.. pitch framing metrics liked him but how much of this can be attributed to the fact that he had Sale and Quintana who have pretty spot on control throwing to him 2/5 days a week? Other than that I remember him as being clunky and bad behind the plate with a horrible arm..

 

Spot on

 

Pitch framing is an over blown stat almost as much as babip

 

Am I wrong, I could be but a top flight pitch framer gets one more called strike game?

Spot on

 

Pitch framing is an over blown stat almost as much as babip

 

Am I wrong, I could be but a top flight pitch framer gets one more called strike game?

Why is BABIP overblown?

I'm excited for the change

As am I. I'm also pleasantly surprised at how unexpected and un-White Sox it is to atleast TRY something different. How many people here had Alexi as our SS and Flowers as catcher? I'd venture to bet most here, because it's what we expected. Change is absolutely necessary with this team, mainly it's offense, and while I agree Flowers was hardly our biggest concern, he was one. Next unexpected but welcomed move should be riddin ourselves of Garcia

As am I. I'm also pleasantly surprised at how unexpected and un-White Sox it is to atleast TRY something different. How many people here had Alexi as our SS and Flowers as catcher? I'd venture to bet most here, because it's what we expected. Change is absolutely necessary with this team, mainly it's offense, and while I agree Flowers was hardly our biggest concern, he was one. Next unexpected but welcomed move should be riddin ourselves of Garcia

 

I agree with everything except maybe the Garcia thing, not sold on that yet.

 

I love that we are doing something different and the off-season has barely begun.

I agree with everything except maybe the Garcia thing, not sold on that yet.

 

I love that we are doing something different and the off-season has barely begun.

 

I want proof that we are not just acquiring guys (like Baltimore used to do) and will be out of the race in June. We need to make some moves to acquire real ballplayers. OK we dumped Flowers. Now we need a GOOD catcher and one who can hit .270 with 24 homers and throw out a runner or two.

I want proof that we are not just acquiring guys (like Baltimore used to do) and will be out of the race in June. We need to make some moves to acquire real ballplayers. OK we dumped Flowers. Now we need a GOOD catcher and one who can hit .270 with 24 homers and throw out a runner or two.

Why not .370 with 48 homers?

I want proof that we are not just acquiring guys (like Baltimore used to do) and will be out of the race in June. We need to make some moves to acquire real ballplayers. OK we dumped Flowers. Now we need a GOOD catcher and one who can hit .270 with 24 homers and throw out a runner or two.

 

Do those grow on trees? Are there even any catchers out there that do that?

Do those grow on trees? Are there even any catchers out there that do that?

Sure. Didn't you know catchers like that are a dime a dozen and almost every team has one? It's just that the White Sox purposely abstain from those types because they enjoy a good challenge and prefer defensive pitch framers.

Sure. Didn't you know catchers like that are a dime a dozen and almost every team has one? It's just that the White Sox purposely abstain from those types because they enjoy a good challenge and prefer defensive pitch framers.

 

a classic snark , greatness at its best.

The past 3 seasons in 25 AB's with the bases loaded Tyler Flowers has 2 hits, 4 walks and 15K's for a .80/.258/.80 batting line... thats a .338 OPS. Just something fun to throw out there

Wow, he hit .800 with the bases loaded?!?!

 

Just messing with you zeros are important...

I want proof that we are not just acquiring guys (like Baltimore used to do) and will be out of the race in June. We need to make some moves to acquire real ballplayers. OK we dumped Flowers. Now we need a GOOD catcher and one who can hit .270 with 24 homers and throw out a runner or two.

 

There is exactly one catcher that can do that in the entire Major Leagues and he is a former MVP who may go into the HOF. Last year just one catcher hit 24 HRs (McCann). His average, .232. Just four catchers hit .270+ (Posey, Pierzynski, Cervelli, Molina). Other than Posey who hit 19 HRs, the other three combined for just 20. The type of catcher you are looking for only comes around about once a decade.

Of course, all these years I wanted them to DFA Flowers and then I find out about pitch framing, decide I actually quite like him, and they DFA him.

 

Yeah, I actually disliked Flowers less this year than I ever had before. Still, it's not a huge loss.

There is exactly one catcher that can do that in the entire Major Leagues and he is a former MVP who may go into the HOF. Last year just one catcher hit 24 HRs (McCann). His average, .232. Just four catchers hit .270+ (Posey, Pierzynski, Cervelli, Molina). Other than Posey who hit 19 HRs, the other three combined for just 20. The type of catcher you are looking for only comes around about once a decade.

Maybe he's saying we need to trade for Buster Posey

The state of catching these days is pretty damn thin, so I guess this could do for a year.

 

It's not going to get much better next year.

Why is BABIP overblown?

 

I just don't like it. I am not sure why I just don't.

I just don't like it. I am not sure why I just don't.

Is it because of how it's applied? You think there's less luck involved in it than people claim? What about the extremes? Don't care how good a guy is, a .380 BABIP for a hitter is not sustainable, nor is a .230 BABIP if you're a pitcher.

OPS of all American League catchers / Tyler Flowers by year

 

2011: .704 / .719

2012: .707 / .708

2013: .706 / .603

2014: .675 / .693

2015: .670 / .652

 

wRC+

 

2011: 92 / 94

2012: 93 / 91

2013: 94 / 61

2014: 90 / 95

2015: 82 / 78

 

Recalibrate your expectations.

Is it because of how it's applied? You think there's less luck involved in it than people claim? What about the extremes? Don't care how good a guy is, a .380 BABIP for a hitter is not sustainable, nor is a .230 BABIP if you're a pitcher.

 

I don't know it just seems like a stat that could easily be explained away.

 

Fast guys will have higher BABIP, guys with high LD% will have higher BABIP, it then takes power and strike outs out of the equation.

 

To me it just feels like a dumb stat

These new guys are candidates for offensive shakeup. They have at least done it before. Flowers is not a candidate for that.

 

If you replace bad with bad now, alas-- you then just try something different in 2017. It is a low-risk shakeup. I am not of the contingent that we risk the pitching staff's success (and Rodon's development) by dismissing Flowers.

Edited December 3, 201510 yr by Jose Paniagua

I don't know it just seems like a stat that could easily be explained away.

 

Fast guys will have higher BABIP, guys with high LD% will have higher BABIP, it then takes power and strike outs out of the equation.

 

To me it just feels like a dumb stat

That's why you look at career averages and batted ball profiles. If a guy is way off his career average and his LD% and such are unchanged, then you know he's likely due for a positive/negative regression. If a guy isn't particularly fast and hits a lot of fly balls (which have a league-wide BABIP of .207) and still has a high BABIP, then something is off there. Alexei is a good example here, his LD% in 2015 was higher than his career average (21.4% vs. 19.3%), and his FB% was lower than his career average, yet his BABIP was almost 30 points below his career average.

That's why you look at career averages and batted ball profiles. If a guy is way off his career average and his LD% and such are unchanged, then you know he's likely due for a positive/negative regression. If a guy isn't particularly fast and hits a lot of fly balls (which have a league-wide BABIP of .207) and still has a high BABIP, then something is off there. Alexei is a good example here, his LD% in 2015 was higher than his career average (21.4% vs. 19.3%), and his FB% was lower than his career average, yet his BABIP was almost 30 points below his career average.

 

Some of this data and the anomalies may also be explained by exit velocity off the bat. A line drive is a line drive whether it's going 75 MPH or 115 MPH. If he wasn't hitting the ball as hard, that would explain some regression in his BABIP.

 

Some of those numbers have become available to the public, but I don't think all of them are yet. You are correct that, on the surface, it appears that it was a bit unlucky for Ramirez to have the season he had given the circumstances.