chitownsportsfan Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Uribe was a much better defender than Anderson. Not to say Anderson can't get there eventually, but that is what made Uribe acceptable. Tim has been a very good defensive SS for a couple months now. If he plays this way out of the gate next year he'll be well on his way to putting up the same numbers Uribe was in his prime in Chicago defensively, I just checked the stats to make sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: He also thought Giolito sucked and then 3 weeks later he thought he was good and now he's all "I told you he was good!" Not true. I always thought he could turn it around. It was more of this: The evidence supported that Giolito and Moncada sucked AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. I defended both of them for months and it got to the point around late July that I couldn't defend their non-performance anymore. It doesn't mean that I still didn't believe in both of them, it just meant I couldn't defend their non-performance at point. It got exhausting defending those guys constantly to this board who wanted to throw both under the bus. Edited August 30, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 44 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: You're right. I look at this, I went down the rabbit hole of trying to prove Anderson sucks and I couldn't pull it off. Hey, that is what the Scientific Method is for, right? I came up with a hypothesis, tested it and it didn't pass. My internal biases did say "I think Anderson sucks." I want to believe he sucks but he doesn't. He's average and that is fine. Not going to argue this anymore. I'm done. I generally don't like players that don't get on base, but if there is proof of value otherwise I'm not going to argue. Cheers brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Not true. I always thought he could turn it around. It was more of this: The evidence supported that Giolito and Moncada sucked AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. I defended both of them for months and it got to the point around late July that I couldn't defend their non-performance anymore. It doesn't mean that I still didn't believe in both of them, it just meant I couldn't defend their non-performance at point. It got exhausting defending those guys constantly. "I thought they could turn it around, but then I couldn't defend them anymore so I said they were horrible, but now Giolito is good so I was right once upon a time and everyone else gave up too soon." Do I have that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: "I thought they could turn it around, but then I couldn't defend them anymore so I said they were horrible, but now Giolito is good so I was right once upon a time and everyone else gave up too soon." Do I have that right? No it was more exhaustion than anything else. The evidence supported they were horrible. I always said the one of the following phrases "Currently" "Right Now" or "At this point in time" because it was more me saying I can't defend them anymore even though I still think they'll be good. I got bludgeoned for a while. I never gave up on those guys, I just gave up publicly defending them because it got to the point where it was indefensible. There is a reason why when I told the board that I was at the game on Kopech day, Fathom asked if I was hanging out in Giolito's locker. Edited August 30, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: My opinion is that even though Anderson is average, he's not a player that I'd keep around if I was Hahn. I just don't like players that don't get on base. However, I was shocked that the MLB average for OBP was around .320. That seems kind of low to me. I would have thought it would have been closer to .330. I'd imagine the guys who are and will become MLB regulars would have their OBP at .330+ Yep. We all have the things we like and dislike. There is nothing wrong with that. The only problem is that how many better are there. I'm sure all MLB teams would love to have improvements at all positions. No team has the best player at multiple positions. The question is how many players can get as close to thag as possible within the frame of the entire team. If you get a team of all at least average players, thats a pretty good team. Edited August 30, 2018 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ptatc said: Yep. We all have the things we like and dislike. There is nothing wrong with that. The only problem is that how many better are there. I'm sure all MLB teams would love to have improvements at all positions. No team has the best player at multiple positions. The question is how many players can get as close to thag as possible within the frame of the entire team. I'd almost prefer a SS with Narvaez's offensive profile rather than Anderson's. If Narvaez was at least passable defensively we could probably pencil him in next season. Catching is probably the one position where defensive ability (including framing) is more important than offense. I like the high contact/high on base profile for the defensive positions. I can live with 5-15 HR from those positions if they're solid defensively, hit .280(with some speed for a MI) and get on base at a .350 clip. Edited August 30, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I'd almost prefer a SS with Narvaez's offensive profile rather than Anderson's. If Narvaez was at least passable defensively we could probably pencil him in next season. Catching is probably the one position where defensive ability (including framing) is more important than offense. I like the high contact/high on base profile for the defensive positions. I can live with 5-15 HR from those positions if they're solid defensively, hit .280(with some speed for a MI) and get on base at a .350 clip. This is where the likes and dislikes come into play. Our biases makes us look at it in a microscope. Others will look at it and say they prefer the high power guy as long as they have good defense because so few SS have good power. Either way Anderson as a player is around average overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I'd almost prefer a SS with 2018 Narvaez's offensive profile rather than Anderson's. If Narvaez was at least passable defensively we could probably pencil him in next season. Catching is probably the one position where defensive ability (including framing) is more important than offense. I like the high contact/high on base profile for the defensive positions. I can live with 5-15 HR from those positions if they're solid defensively, hit .280 and get on base at a .350 clip. If we are talking about SS, I prefer someone with Anderson's defensive profile above all. When building a team I want players up the middle (catcher, SS, and CF) who are the best at preventing runs and saving my pitching staff from as many extra pitches and outs as possible. If you are talking about flawed players, which almost are at some extent, I would much rather have offensively limited players in my most important defensive positions versus vice versa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 If you look at the stolen bases as added "total base" (I realize it's not included in that calculation, but I'll never understand why), I think it's useful to realize that Anderson's walks + stolen bases > Davidson's walk total. And Davidson's walk rate is one of the only things left going for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If we are talking about SS, I prefer someone with Anderson's defensive profile above all. When building a team I want players up the middle (catcher, SS, and CF) who are the best at preventing runs and saving my pitching staff from as many extra pitches and outs as possible. If you are talking about flawed players, which almost are at some extent, I would much rather have offensively limited players in my most important defensive positions versus vice versa. To me, that almost goes without saying. It is the same argument with Engel. Now his arm is average, but he can really go get 'em in CF and if this hitting improvement is real he might be able to stick until either Robert or Basabe supplant him, and I'm pretty confident one of those two will. You can live with him hitting .245-.255 with minimal power because he saves so many runs in CF. Who knows? Maybe if Engel got to that point he'd be a 12-15 HR/ year guy. If that happens, they might actually be able to trade him for something of value when Robert/Basabe supplant him. Engel's OBP sucks too, but his is more because he doesn't get hits rather than him not walking. Similarly, Moncada's OBP might be hovering around .300 right now, but when you take into account he's hitting .220 that is fine, in terms of walk rate. Edited August 30, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: To me, that almost goes without saying. It is the same argument with Engel. Now his arm is average, but he can really go get 'em in CF and if this improvement is real he might be able to stick until either Robert or Basabe supplant him, and I'm pretty confident one of those two will. Maybe Gonzalez Edited August 30, 2018 by zisk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 Just now, zisk said: Maybe Gonzalez Yeah him too. Huge omission to forget about Gonzalez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Problem is that the advanced metrics don't think Engel is even a good CF, let alone a very good or elite one. I don't like Engel, that's my bias, but neither do the metrics. The problem with seasons like this is you start to think guys that suck, and are not prospects, and are at best 1 WAR players are actually decent starters. I think we've forgotten what a solid starting CF looks like on the South Side but it doesn't look like Adam Engel, his little hot streak (after over 900 PA of absolute SUCK) aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 hours ago, ptatc said: Nobody has seen Billy Madison? I really shouldn't have said that but the quote from the movie came into my mind while reading this thread. I have seen it lol, i knew what you were quoting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Problem is that the advanced metrics don't think Engel is even a good CF, let alone a very good or elite one. I don't like Engel, that's my bias, but neither do the metrics. The problem with seasons like this is you start to think guys that suck, and are not prospects, and are at best 1 WAR players are actually decent starters. I think we've forgotten what a solid starting CF looks like on the South Side but it doesn't look like Adam Engel, his little hot streak (after over 900 PA of absolute SUCK) aside. No doubt. I don't know why the metrics hate Engel defensively(maybe it has to do with his noodle arm), but I'm willing to wait a bit to see if he could provide more value because they've been talking about a swing change in the broadcasts with him. If he is still crap next May, by all means DFA him. For most of the past two seasons he belonged nowhere near an MLB roster. Edited August 30, 2018 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Quite a thread this is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Quite a thread this is. Yeah, my head hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: The Boston Red Sox? They're damn close Betts Bogaerts Benintendi Sale JD Martinez Nunez is probably in that category at 2B Kimbrel I'd bet Moreland is close because of bad 1Bs all across baseball I know you've since changed your stance but it's still hilarious that Tim Anderson "sucks" yet you think Eduardo Nunez is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: Problem is that the advanced metrics don't think Engel is even a good CF, let alone a very good or elite one. I don't like Engel, that's my bias, but neither do the metrics. The metrics don't like him because he can't throw a baseball. He's great with range and speed out there but I personally like the fact that the metrics also care about his arm, as it's a good reminder that he isn't quite elite defensively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: Problem is that the advanced metrics don't think Engel is even a good CF, let alone a very good or elite one. I don't like Engel, that's my bias, but neither do the metrics. The problem with seasons like this is you start to think guys that suck, and are not prospects, and are at best 1 WAR players are actually decent starters. I think we've forgotten what a solid starting CF looks like on the South Side but it doesn't look like Adam Engel, his little hot streak (after over 900 PA of absolute SUCK) aside. The metrics have actually swung around to a positive UZR/150 on him. He also has a positive dWAR now. He has a negative arm rating, and a negative errors rating, but that is largely negated by a big time range number. The crazy thing is his fangraphs defensive number actually ranks him just ahead of Mike Trout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: The metrics have actually swung around to a positive UZR/150 on him. He also has a positive dWAR now. He has a negative arm rating, and a negative errors rating, but that is largely negated by a big time range number. The crazy thing is his fangraphs defensive number actually ranks him just ahead of Mike Trout. So does Kyle Schwarber :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: So does Kyle Schwarber 😄 Engel is actually 6th in range factor and 3rd in Out of Zone amongst all MLB CF's. They really hate his arm though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Engel is actually 6th in range factor and 3rd in Out of Zone amongst all MLB CF's. They really hate his arm though. Statcast supports this too. He’s 4th among all OF this year in Outs Above Average and was third last year. Statcast doesn’t account for the arm though, and it’s clearly a big weakness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 On 8/30/2018 at 8:55 AM, southsider2k5 said: This thread makes my head hurt. This thread sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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