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Sleepy Harold

Yonder DFA'd

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8 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

"Luck is the residue of design"-Hall of Fame baseball executive Branch Rickey.

Hahn is part of the reason for the bad "luck."

The guy is excellent from a contract / financial standpoint regarding players. From a purely baseball standpoint, the record speaks for itself. 

It DOESN'T speak for itself.  It seems like Hahn has drafted and made a bunch of trades and we are set for potentially the greatest White Sox team any of us has ever seen.  Madrigal, Moncado, Robert, Jimenez, Vaughan and Anderson all look like budding stars.  McCann is an all star catcher.  And Giolito, Cease, Kopech and Rodon all have ace stuff.  Add in Bummer, Colome, ABreau, Dunning, Lopez, Collins, burger, Adolfo, Rutherford, Hansen, Basabe...and nearly the lowest payroll in baseball with a promise to spend?  Hate on Hahn after the rebuild fails.  It just seems like now is not the right time.  

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is 100% hindsight.  Cubs traded for Cole Hamels who was 34,  1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade and overall with a 5.2 FIP for the Rangers...which is a near exact comparison to Shields....and he was owed about the same amount of money and the Cubs traded three prospects for him.   He  has put up a 6 WAR in the 30 starts after the trade.   You can say the Cubs are geniuses and the Sox are idiots but I think it is luck...it happens frequently a fading star pitcher comes back to life when traded to a contender...and it happens frequently that they just continue to be bad.  But AT THE TIME...it was worth the gamble...if instead of putting up a -1.8 WAR the rest of the way Shields puts up a 3...then suddenly the Sox are in the Wild card chase...Sale and Quintana were both 5+ WAR pitchers that year, Rodon went 7-3 in the second half and that year you had a bullpen of David Robertson, Nate Jones and Dan Jennings who combined also had a 5 WAR.  All you needed to do was make the wild card and you could have had a pitching WS run like 2005.  It DIDN'T WORK.  I am sad too...but it wasn't a systemic failure.    As for the Tatis legend...Fangraphs was as high as anyone on him.  Here are there post trade grades they had on him:

Hit: 20/50, Raw Power: 40/50, Game Power: 20/50, Run: 50/45, Field: 40/45, Throw: 60/60, FV: 40

So his future value was a bench player who derives most of his value from speed and a big arm. Yawn.  

 

 

So what you are saying is that me, my brother, and Keith Law are from the future?

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2 hours ago, Timmy U said:

So what you are saying is that me, my brother, and Keith Law are from the future?

Note I do not know you and cannot rule out the possibility that your family are time travelers.     

As for hating the trade at the time...of course...many people had that opinion.   Expensive, old and in decline.  Like Cole Hamels.  I'm sure it is not hard to find Cubs fans that last year hated that trade as well...until they loved it.  

i cannot find any Keith Law rankings of Tatis BEFORE the trade....in 2017 of the six leading minor league rankers...BA, BP, Call, Sickles, MLB and Klaw only Klaw ranked Fernando at all...at 47 after Tatis had a very good showing in A ball at 17 post trade.   Even after a great first year virtually all minor league experts had no opinion on Tatis and I suspect Klaw's was a combination of respect for the blood lines and punking the White Sox as he always does.   

 

 

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1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Note I do not know you and cannot rule out the possibility that your family are time travelers.     

As for hating the trade at the time...of course...many people had that opinion.   Expensive, old and in decline.  Like Cole Hamels.  I'm sure it is not hard to find Cubs fans that last year hated that trade as well...until they loved it.  

i cannot find any Keith Law rankings of Tatis BEFORE the trade....in 2017 of the six leading minor league rankers...BA, BP, Call, Sickles, MLB and Klaw only Klaw ranked Fernando at all...at 47 after Tatis had a very good showing in A ball at 17 post trade.   Even after a great first year virtually all minor league experts had no opinion on Tatis and I suspect Klaw's was a combination of respect for the blood lines and punking the White Sox as he always does.   

 

 

It wasn’t a ranking, it was an article.  You may recall that the trad was rumored for over a week before it happened.  In that period he warned that it would be a huge mistake.  Turns out, he undersold that.

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1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

It wasn’t a ranking, it was an article.  You may recall that the trad was rumored for over a week before it happened.  In that period he warned that it would be a huge mistake.  Turns out, he undersold that.

I did find an article and a Klaw chat where the rumor was that the Sox were going to trade Tim Anderson for Shields and in both cases Klaw said that would be a big mistake....but I didn't see anything where anyone said "well trade Tim Anderson if you must but don't touch Fernando Tatis, Jr".  Honestly there is no point in arguing as it DID turn out to be a disastrous trade...as the Nationals are saying now in the Eaton trade, and the Cubs in the Quintana trade.

But come on...if I told you the White Sox traded Luis Mieses (sox current 18 year old prospect with Fangraph FV of 40 like Tatis back in 2016) for 34 year old Jeff Samardzija there are a LOT of negative takes you could have...but...oh no...not Mieses would be the least likely in present time.  

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RE:  Mieses.

But that is what Law allegedly said when told of the Tatis giveaway:  "Oh, no."  I said it, too.

Plus, Samardizja is not the same totally broken down pitcher that Shields was.  

Plus, Mieses has 2+ seasons of pro ball with 100 games and 500 PA's.  Tatis had none. 

Plus, Tatis had a bonus of around $800,000.  I don't know what Mieses got.

Not a valid comparison.  We should have kicked Tatis' tires.  Incompetence got in the way.

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1 minute ago, oldsox said:

RE:  Mieses.

But that is what Law allegedly said when told of the Tatis giveaway:  "Oh, no."  I said it, too.

Plus, Samardizja is not the same totally broken down pitcher that Shields was.  

Plus, Mieses has 2+ seasons of pro ball with 100 games and 500 PA's.  Tatis had none. 

Plus, Tatis had a bonus of around $800,000.  I don't know what Mieses got.

Not a valid comparison.  We should have kicked Tatis' tires.  Incompetence got in the way.

Maybe he said it...I couldn't find a contemporary statement.  I did find a BA comment on the day of the trade that said Tatis was not in the top 30 of international prospects from 2015 nor was he a top 30 White Sox prospect.  Shields is exactly as broken down a former ace as Cole Hamels was last year for the Cubs...and he has since put up a 6 WAR in his next 30 starts.  Sometimes you get lucky...and some times you don't...but it is ridiculous after the fact to suggest we were giving up a future hall of famer for nothing.    

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Maybe he said it...I couldn't find a contemporary statement.  I did find a BA comment on the day of the trade that said Tatis was not in the top 30 of international prospects from 2015 nor was he a top 30 White Sox prospect.  Shields is exactly as broken down a former ace as Cole Hamels was last year for the Cubs...and he has since put up a 6 WAR in his next 30 starts.  Sometimes you get lucky...and some times you don't...but it is ridiculous after the fact to suggest we were giving up a future hall of famer for nothing.    

I don't think Hamels gave up 10 runs in his last start for his previous team as Shields did, nor do I think Hamels' owner was publicly ripping him before the trade in essence saying he was "done."

To me there was a major difference between those two pitchers / acquisitions and again it seems to show the difference between the Cubs FO (Theo) and the Sox with Hahn. Just my opinion.

Now in fairness to Rick the entire Shields deal smells like Kenny completely to me. That was his M.O. when he was G.M. "Go for it right now! Dammit!!!" That football mentality. Which is OK in moderation but not when it overwhelms your ability to make rational decisions.

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25 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I don't think Hamels gave up 10 runs in his last start for his previous team as Shields did, nor do I think Hamels' owner was publicly ripping him before the trade in essence saying he was "done."

To me there was a major difference between those two pitchers / acquisitions and again it seems to show the difference between the Cubs FO (Theo) and the Sox with Hahn. Just my opinion.

Now in fairness to Rick the entire Shields deal smells like Kenny completely to me. That was his M.O. when he was G.M. "Go for it right now! Dammit!!!" That football mentality. Which is OK in moderation but not when it overwhelms your ability to make rational decisions.

Cole Hamels was 34,  1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade.   But I do agree with you...I think Kenny still was running the show...and I think Kenny is largely to blame for the Sox dearth of talent by 2016.  He took over a young 95 win team with the #1 rated farm system in 2000 and by the time he turned it over in 2012 they had the 30th ranked farm system and a broken down old team that was about to win 67 games in 2013.   Jerry gets a lot of hate on Soxtalk.  RH gets a lot of hate but it seems to me the real villain is KW.  

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Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

Cole Hamels was 34,  1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade.   But I do agree with you...I think Kenny still was running the show...and I think Kenny is largely to blame for the Sox dearth of talent by 2016.  He took over a young 95 win team with the #1 rated farm system in 2000 and by the time he turned it over in 2012 they had the 30th ranked farm system and a broken down old team that was about to win 67 games in 2013.   Jerry gets a lot of hate on Soxtalk.  RH gets a lot of hate but it seems to me the real villain is KW.  

Though his go for it at all costs did lead to the 2005 WS...which is a moment I'll never forget.  

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Just now, sin city sox fan said:

Any news if anyone claimed Alonso?

Wouldn't that be nice.  But there is no chance.  Sox will wait the 10 days, then release him.  Someone will probably pick him up for the pro-rated minimum, though. 

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6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wouldn't that be nice.  But there is no chance.  Sox will wait the 10 days, then release him.  Someone will probably pick him up for the pro-rated minimum, though. 

Are the Sox totally in the clear on his 9 million option for next year? They will just have to buyout him out for 1 million, correct? 

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2 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Are the Sox totally in the clear on his 9 million option for next year? They will just have to buyout him out for 1 million, correct? 

Correct.  In the unlikely event of someone claiming Alonso, then the Sox would then be off the hook for the remainder of this year's salary and the $1M buyout.  I suppose if someone really wants him they could trade for him and Sox eat the majority of it $ owed to him.  Also unlikely.  

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On 7/1/2019 at 8:21 AM, michelangelosmonkey said:

It DOESN'T speak for itself.  It seems like Hahn has drafted and made a bunch of trades and we are set for potentially the greatest White Sox team any of us has ever seen.  Madrigal, Moncado, Robert, Jimenez, Vaughan and Anderson all look like budding stars.  McCann is an all star catcher.  And Giolito, Cease, Kopech and Rodon all have ace stuff.  Add in Bummer, Colome, ABreau, Dunning, Lopez, Collins, burger, Adolfo, Rutherford, Hansen, Basabe...and nearly the lowest payroll in baseball with a promise to spend?  Hate on Hahn after the rebuild fails.  It just seems like now is not the right time.  

I agree.  You just named 22 players that most of us would agree are of high quality.  Add two decent starters and a right fielder to that mix and you have a very watchable team.  In a year or two a world champ.

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On 7/3/2019 at 4:07 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t think anyone picks up Yonder this year.

Wrong.  Rockies signed him to minor league deal.

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8 hours ago, oldsox said:

Wrong.  Rockies signed him to minor league deal.

I mean, I think it’s pretty obvious that I meant he wouldn’t see the majors this year.  That prediction may ultimately be wrong, but them signing him to a minor deal doesn’t change shit right now.

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Manny's bro in law off to fast start in Rocky's org.

10/24, 8 rbi in 7 games.

 

Edited by oldsox
  • Haha 1

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This worries me. If Hahn trades Abreu at the deadline, he might bring back Alonso to replace Abreu.

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1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

This worries me. If Hahn trades Abreu at the deadline, he might bring back Alonso to replace Abreu.

That's really a worry of yours? Like you honestly believe there's a possibility of that happening?

  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Manny's bro in law off to fast start in Rocky's org.

10/24, 8 rbi in 7 games.

 

AAA stats. 

Who knows what his MLB stats will look like.

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4 minutes ago, knightni said:

AAA stats. 

Who knows what his MLB stats will look like.

A "professional" hitting well in AAA in the middle of a desert? Unthinkable. 

Edited by mqr

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4 minutes ago, knightni said:

AAA stats. 

Who knows what his MLB stats will look like.

Something like .178/.275/.301 sounds about right. (Yes those are his 2019 White Sox stats)

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