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MeanJoeCrede

What about Collins?

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13 hours ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

1. Is he a catcher?

2. Is he a part of the core moving forward?

3. Is he just a left handed bat with a high OBP?

 4. Is he a trade piece?

5. Or do we need more time to figure out what he is and how he fits?

I think all of this is tbd. He never tore up the minor leagues like our other big prospects all did at one point or another. 

If the Sox go out and get crazy and sign Gerrit Cole for example - I would understand if they felt they didn't have enough to trust Zack and traded him. If you make a big splash in free agency, it's go time. His track record during his time with the Sox organization doesn't really lead anyone to think he will be a regular positive contributor to a potential World Series team. That doesn't mean it won't change, but I would understand if the Sox move him in a deal towards improving at RF or SP.

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31 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I think all of this is tbd. He never tore up the minor leagues like our other big prospects all did at one point or another. 

If the Sox go out and get crazy and sign Gerrit Cole for example - I would understand if they felt they didn't have enough to trust Zack and traded him. If you make a big splash in free agency, it's go time. His track record during his time with the Sox organization doesn't really lead anyone to think he will be a regular positive contributor to a potential World Series team. That doesn't mean it won't change, but I would understand if the Sox move him in a deal towards improving at RF or SP.

Moncada put up a wRC of 130 in AAA, and we called him up and let him struggle for a year and a half on the big league club. Collins put up a wRC of 140 in AAA last year and some people don’t want to give him a chance. 

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9 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Moncada put up a wRC of 130 in AAA, and we called him up and let him struggle for a year and a half on the big league club. Collins put up a wRC of 140 in AAA last year and some people don’t want to give him a chance

Moncada is younger than Zack, yet he is 2-2.5 years ahead of him in his development. Moncada also had a taste of the show before the Sox acquired him, which may or may not of pushed them to move faster with him.

Ultimately it only matters if the Sox give Zack a chance or not. A lot of baseball people say he sucks at catching and needs a position change. So does that leave him as a man without a position? Where does he go and how does that fit in the White Sox plans? Or do they think he can stick at catcher? A lot of questions.

Lastly - trading a guy does not automatically mean you are giving up on him. The Sox have a great need for a right fielder and a starting pitcher. Some of these might be better filled via trade than free agency. You have to give to get.

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Platoon DH/1B/catcher. We’ll get plenty of ABs against right handed pitching in 2020.

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If it was my team, he'd be getting AB's every day rotating between C and DH. I still think we're in the developmental stage though, so we can live with his struggles. 

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What is a fair expectation for Collins?  What if he did something like .216/.352/.341?  Would people be ok with production like that from him in his first real season, as a 25 year old?  With then maybe some progression to something like .225/.327/.401 the next season?  

While getting ABs at 1B, C and DH?

Edited by turnin' two

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Sox have always been skittish about using rookies. They'll probably trade him for nothing and then sign an old bum for 50 million.

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28 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

What is a fair expectation for Collins?  What if he did something like .216/.352/.341?  Would people be ok with production like that from him in his first real season, as a 25 year old?  With then maybe some progression to something like .225/.327/.401 the next season?  

While getting ABs at 1B, C and DH?

If he slugs .341, he should quit baseball altogether. 

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3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

If he slugs .341, he should quit baseball altogether. 

Thanks for taking the bait.  Those were Grandal's numbers in his first 2 seasons.  

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandya01.shtml

 

Disclaimer!  Ahh!  Upon further review, those were his numbers in his 24 (108 PA) and 25 seasons.  His second full season (26) was .234/.353/.403

The point remains the same though.  Grandal and Collins are similar style players (both taken in the 27th round, then went to Miami to be taken in the 1st!).  They will likely be low BA but high OBP players with some power.  Maybe some patience is required for Collins.  

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38 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

What is a fair expectation for Collins?  What if he did something like .216/.352/.341?  Would people be ok with production like that from him in his first real season, as a 25 year old?  With then maybe some progression to something like .225/.327/.401 the next season?  

While getting ABs at 1B, C and DH?

I think anything less than .230/.350/.420 and be won’t last very long in the lineup...unless he proves to be viable catcher defensively. But if he’s primarily a DH and occasional C/1B he’s going to have to slug a good bit over .400. And as long as he’s not completely overmatched his OBP floor is probably .350 at worst honestly, I think patience and a lot of walks is just in his dna as a hitter. 

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18 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Thanks for taking the bait.  Those were Grandal's numbers in his first 2 seasons.  

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandya01.shtml

 

Disclaimer!  Ahh!  Upon further review, those were his numbers in his 24 (108 PA) and 25 seasons.  His second full season (26) was .234/.353/.403

The point remains the same though.  Grandal and Collins are similar style players (both taken in the 27th round, then went to Miami to be taken in the 1st!).  They will likely be low BA but high OBP players with some power.  Maybe some patience is required for Collins.  

I was actually going to post something similar.  I don't think it's implausable for him to put up a .240 average with a .340 OBP, which is what Grandal's career numbers are, probably with more power.  It's goofy to give up on him.

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22 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Thanks for taking the bait.  Those were Grandal's numbers in his first 2 seasons.  

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandya01.shtml

 

Disclaimer!  Ahh!  Upon further review, those were his numbers in his 24 (108 PA) and 25 seasons.  His second full season (26) was .234/.353/.403

The point remains the same though.  Grandal and Collins are similar style players (both taken in the 27th round, then went to Miami to be taken in the 1st!).  They will likely be low BA but high OBP players with some power.  Maybe some patience is required for Collins.  

Taking the bait? I don't give a shit about Grandal. I'm captain of the "invest in your own players" boat. 

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serious question  - what is his downfall at Catcher defensively? 

Does he call a bad game? bad framer? bad at blocking balls? bat at throwing guys out? All of the above? I'm just trying to figure out why everybody doesn't like him. Beacuse otherwsie you have a guy who can hit probably .240 with an OBP of like .340 with a bit of pop and LHB at the catcher position. I guess I jsut haven't paid attention that if he's really THAT bad at catcher. 

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the problem with Collins is that his skill set is very heavy leaning on the walk. He has some pop but 25 homers is not going to cut it at dh/1b when he is hiting 220 even with his elite walk rate. 

So he either needs to improve his hit tool to about .250 or improve the power to 30+ bombs.

If he was a legitimate catcher it would have been easier of course.

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He put up a .950 OPS in AAA this year...not much different than Robert this year or Jiminez last year.  He hit .280 this year in AAA at 24. He hit .360 in his senior year in Miami.     The idea that his ceiling is .220 with 25 homers and he can't catch seems wildly pessimistic.  An elite batting eye added to the natural maturation process would suggest he could be an elite hitter.  Maybe we've used up our unbridled optimism on Robert and Madrigal but if we're going to dream it doesn't seem crazy to dream that Collins could be very good.  

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54 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He put up a .950 OPS in AAA this year...not much different than Robert this year or Jiminez last year.  He hit .280 this year in AAA at 24. He hit .360 in his senior year in Miami.     The idea that his ceiling is .220 with 25 homers and he can't catch seems wildly pessimistic.  An elite batting eye added to the natural maturation process would suggest he could be an elite hitter.  Maybe we've used up our unbridled optimism on Robert and Madrigal but if we're going to dream it doesn't seem crazy to dream that Collins could be very good.  

Sure, but why would the White Sox not give him more than 30+ at-bats the first time he came up...or at least regular playing time?   And, most interestingly/controversially, WHY not let him play everyday when he came back late in the season after having an impressive run at Charlotte?

There was nothing on the line by then.  McCann was wearing down.  To help Castillo find a FA landing spot?  We don't "owe" the players on the roster anything more than a paycheck, other than exceptions like Abreu, Konerko and Buehrle that JR has made in the past.

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1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He put up a .950 OPS in AAA this year...not much different than Robert this year or Jiminez last year.  He hit .280 this year in AAA at 24. He hit .360 in his senior year in Miami.     The idea that his ceiling is .220 with 25 homers and he can't catch seems wildly pessimistic.  An elite batting eye added to the natural maturation process would suggest he could be an elite hitter.  Maybe we've used up our unbridled optimism on Robert and Madrigal but if we're going to dream it doesn't seem crazy to dream that Collins could be very good.  

Don't forget we also have unbridled optimism for Vaughn.🙂

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Just now, Sarava said:

I think all of this is tbd. He never tore up the minor leagues like our other big prospects all did at one point or another. 

If the Sox go out and get crazy and sign Gerrit Cole for example - I would understand if they felt they didn't have enough to trust Zack and traded him. If you make a big splash in free agency, it's go time. His track record during his time with the Sox organization doesn't really lead anyone to think he will be a regular positive contributor to a potential World Series team. That doesn't mean it won't change, but I would understand if the Sox move him in a deal towards improving at RF or SP.

Call it what you want but he is not a good catcher and we took him in the first round. Who knows if we have a coach working with him. Nobody home. 

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6 minutes ago, pcq said:

Call it what you want but he is not a good catcher and we took him in the first round. Who knows if we have a coach working with him. Nobody home. 

When you say he is not a good catcher, is that based on things you’ve read? Or based on the eye test when you’ve watched him behind the plate?

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7 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

When you say he is not a good catcher, is that based on things you’ve read? Or based on the eye test when you’ve watched him behind the plate?

Both

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10 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I don't want any part of trading Collins.  You still don't know what he is at the plate yet because of terrible managing.

 Or fear he would be a standout player on another team.

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