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Stone's Throwing of Shade at Ricky

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3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Additionally, if we want to talk about LEAGUE WIDE evaluations, that same GM (Rick Hahn) found McCann.

In the same off-season that Yasmani Grandal got 18.5 million from that heralded Brewers GM you proclaim superior to Hahn, Hahn signed McCann for 2.5 million. That means the Brewers could have had the better player - according to you - for 16 million less but chose to overspend on a player they "internally didn't like as much" according to you. I'm trying to keep up on your logic here, but I'm having a hard time.

Logic is important in debates.

The logic is simple. Which of the three GMs would you hire based on their GM track record? Hahn's moves from 2013-2015 put the team into tanking mode, and under Friends of Jerry logic bought him another 10 years of job security.

The other two GMs turned around three clubs without tanking, two of which are in much smaller markets (TB and Milwaukee).

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Can we somehow hire the person or people who provide the Indians with a constant supply of guys who know how to pitch at the major league level?

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2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The idea that the Sox should somehow upset about the performance of their front office today is a joke.  Four years ago?  Sure.  I don't think anyone would have blinked if that happened.  In fact if you actually pay attention, the front office team presented ownership this rebuild plan a few times before they finally decided to go this way.  If they had decided to go a different direction for the rebuild, no one would have argued, but for the record, the top of this front office was kept in tact, while a TON of changes were made underneath them.  New drafting, new international teams, new front office reports, many more analytics hires, etc.

But today?  Please.  The Sox started from the bottom, sold off the key pieces for the highest possible return, and built themselves what peaked as the best farm team in baseball.  The main tide of those players has hit the majors, and has the team in first place for the first time since 2012, and in the playoffs for the first time since 2008.  They did EXACTLY what they were paid to do these last four years.  This is a first place team, in case people haven't noticed, with still a good farm system to add from, and once finances stabilize, they are in a great monetary position to add pieces that the farm system cannot down the road.  The even insinuation that someone would be fired for doing the job the Sox have done over the last few years is absurd lowest common denominator meatball fan drivel.  All of the attempts to falsely compare them to other teams in other situations and especially to tie them to other professional sports franchises is just embarrassing.  Too bad we can't fold fans accountable in the same fashion as they "demand".

The real talent would come from being able to build a winning team without blowing the team up. Great GMs do it all the time. It doesn't take a genius to be able to blow up a team and build a winner especially not a team like the White Sox in 2016. Often teams are complete trash when they decide to blow it up but the White Sox were not which allowed them to trade stars with long term contracts and get a bunch of high quality prospects. I would give Hahn far more credit if he were to have built a winner without blowing it up. Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

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1 minute ago, JuliusO1274 said:

The real talent would come from being able to build a winning team without blowing the team up. Great GMs do it all the time. It doesn't take a genius to be able to blow up a team and build a winner especially not a team like the White Sox in 2016. Often teams are complete trash when they decide to blow it up but the White Sox were not which allowed them to trade stars with long term contracts and get a bunch of high quality prospects. I would give Hahn far more credit if he were to have built a winner without blowing it up. Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

So what you are saying is if you can reframe the argument to disqualify every thing good and hold in everything bad, the team looks bad. How profound. 

The question is simple,  if it is so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

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4 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

 I would give Hahn far more credit if he were to have built a winner without blowing it up. Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

You are not taking in to account that Hahn negotiated the contracts that created the surplus value that made those trades possible.

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9 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

The real talent would come from being able to build a winning team without blowing the team up. Great GMs do it all the time. It doesn't take a genius to be able to blow up a team and build a winner especially not a team like the White Sox in 2016. Often teams are complete trash when they decide to blow it up but the White Sox were not which allowed them to trade stars with long term contracts and get a bunch of high quality prospects. I would give Hahn far more credit if he were to have built a winner without blowing it up. Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

What did the Marlins get back for Realmuto,Yelich, Ozuna, Stanton and to a lesser extent Dee Gordon? 

Edited by GermanSoxFan
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1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

So what you are saying is if you can reframe the argument to disqualify every thing good and hold in everything bad, the team looks bad. How profound. 

The question is simple,  if it is so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

I am not even sure what your first sentence is about. My point is that I don't believe the White Sox current success is due to any unique talent of Hahn as a GM. If he was a great GM he would have been able to do it without blowing it up. It is not normal for a team with the talent the White Sox had in 2016 on long term contracts to blow it up. That made Hahns job much easier than other teams who rebuild.

Most bad teams are in some way rebuilding. GMs of mediocre teams similar to the White Sox in 2016 don't blow it up because they would rather try to make moves to compete now rather than dwell in the bottom for 3-5 years. 

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25 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

 Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

Plenty of teams have traded guys of similar caliber and got diddly squat in return. 

Getting Eloy for Quintana in itself is a huge display of scouting and patience. 

Edited by mqr
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22 minutes ago, Grindersrule said:

You are not taking in to account that Hahn negotiated the contracts that created the surplus value that made those trades possible.

There it is.  That is the other piece being completed ignored by original posterm

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1 minute ago, JuliusO1274 said:

I am not even sure what your first sentence is about. My point is that I don't believe the White Sox current success is due to any unique talent of Hahn as a GM. If he was a great GM he would have been able to do it without blowing it up. It is not normal for a team with the talent the White Sox had in 2016 on long term contracts to blow it up. That made Hahns job much easier than other teams who rebuild.

Most bad teams are in some way rebuilding. GMs of mediocre teams similar to the White Sox in 2016 don't blow it up because they would rather try to make moves to compete now rather than dwell in the bottom for 3-5 years. 

Blowing it up allowed them to build a strong core of young players who are now locked up in team friendly contracts. Also, get some great draft picks, and have money to go get Robert, sign DK, Yaz and extend Abreu.  There's a reason this is all coming together at once.  

Aside from Sale, Q and Eaton, what talent? 

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I don't get what is so hard about admitting Kenny, Hahn and co. did a brutal job in the early tens and have since turned it around significantly, to the point they probably have the best long term (or second best) outlook in all of baseball. 

Edited by mqr
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16 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

I am not even sure what your first sentence is about. My point is that I don't believe the White Sox current success is due to any unique talent of Hahn as a GM. If he was a great GM he would have been able to do it without blowing it up. It is not normal for a team with the talent the White Sox had in 2016 on long term contracts to blow it up. That made Hahns job much easier than other teams who rebuild.

Most bad teams are in some way rebuilding. GMs of mediocre teams similar to the White Sox in 2016 don't blow it up because they would rather try to make moves to compete now rather than dwell in the bottom for 3-5 years. 

Again, if you leave out all of the good parts, the story is bad.

The fact that the Rick Hahn got all of these extensions done, and they were friendly contracts to great players IS a reason we were able to do this rebuild.  Guys like Quintana and Sale would not have had the same values if they were years closer to free agency.  Hahn did that.  It wasn't just a miracle of circumstance or something.  it is a key to the rebuild.  Finally again, Pittsburgh is a great example of a team that has had some incredible players over their time, but can't seem to do anything to get a rebuild done.  Why it is different for the White Sox?

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32 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

The real talent would come from being able to build a winning team without blowing the team up. Great GMs do it all the time. It doesn't take a genius to be able to blow up a team and build a winner especially not a team like the White Sox in 2016. Often teams are complete trash when they decide to blow it up but the White Sox were not which allowed them to trade stars with long term contracts and get a bunch of high quality prospects. I would give Hahn far more credit if he were to have built a winner without blowing it up. Any GM could have traded Sale, Quintana, and Eaton and got a lot of talent back. 

There is no GM that I am aware of that has done the extension game as well as Hahn IMO.  His trades of Sale, Quintana, and Eaton were enhanced because of the extensions negotiated by RH.

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5 minutes ago, mqr said:

I don't get what is so hard about admitting Kenny, Hahn and co. did a brutal job in the early tens and have since turned it around significantly, to the point they probably have the best long term (or second best) outlook in all of baseball. 

The situation has 100% changed.  The people who are still bitter about the old days are holding on to outdated grudges.

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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The situation has 100% changed.  The people who are still bitter about the old days are holding on to outdated grudges.

It's just super bizarre, to me, to frame this as an argument against organizational loyalty as opposed to the opposite. 

Jerry could easily have brought in some other fresh faced dipshit spewing sexy driveline buzzwords that would have done nothing right. Instead, for whatever reason, he trusted that his guys had learned from their misplays  and figured out what their strengths were and the benefits of that are right in front of us. 

Edited by mqr

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4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The situation has 100% changed.  The people who are still bitter about the old days are holding on to outdated grudges.

I don't think there's a better way to put it.

It's hard for me to blame them though. The old days were brutal.

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1 minute ago, mqr said:

It's just super bizarre, to me, to frame this as an argument against organizational loyalty as opposed to the opposite. 

Jerry could easily have brought in some other fresh faced dipshit that would have done nothing right. Instead, for whatever reason, he trusted that his guys had learned from their misplays  and figured out what their strengths were and the benefits of that are right in front of us. 

Like I said if you had made these arguments 4 years ago, sure.  These guys had done nothing to deserve their jobs to partake in a rebuild and the evidence then made it look like this group was being asked to do exaclty what they were worst at doing.

But now we have all of this new information to tell us different.  The #1 farm system had turned into a playoff birth.  That is EXACTLY what you wanted to see out of this.  And they are still on the upswing here.

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12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Like I said if you had made these arguments 4 years ago, sure.  These guys had done nothing to deserve their jobs to partake in a rebuild and the evidence then made it look like this group was being asked to do exaclty what they were worst at doing.

But now we have all of this new information to tell us different.  The #1 farm system had turned into a playoff birth.  That is EXACTLY what you wanted to see out of this.  And they are still on the upswing here.

With hindsight, I think I would say there is quite literally no one I would have rather hemled the thing. The conversion rate on their young acquisitions is pretty absurd. 

The only real misses they've had are Collins and Fulmer and getting borderline major leaguers out of the 10-11 picks really shouldn't be all that unexpected. 

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7 minutes ago, mqr said:

With hindsight, I think I would say there is quite literally no one I would have rather hemled the thing. The conversion rate on their young acquisitions is pretty absurd. 

The only real misses they've had are Collins and Fulmer and getting borderline major leaguers out of the 10-11 picks really shouldn't be all that unexpected. 

If you look at the whole package of where we are today, and what we still have in the minors, plus the guys who are ready to sign when the international stuff is ready, I can't see giving this anything but an A.  If the pandemic hadn't happened, we'd also be sitting in an incredible financial situation on top of all of the assets.

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2 hours ago, wegner said:

Can we somehow hire the person or people who provide the Indians with a constant supply of guys who know how to pitch at the major league level?

A smart FO would be trying to poach some of that scouting/development talent or figure what magic they are working behind the scenes to so consistently produce outstanding pitching. 

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1 hour ago, Buehrle5687 said:

Blowing it up allowed them to build a strong core of young players who are now locked up in team friendly contracts. Also, get some great draft picks, and have money to go get Robert, sign DK, Yaz and extend Abreu.  There's a reason this is all coming together at once.  

Aside from Sale, Q and Eaton, what talent? 

All of the talent we got back in prospects that are contributing come from the Sale, Q, and Eaton trades. 

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Loyalty is fine, as long as a person is doing their job adequately. Where the disconnect was with the fanbase is that KW and Hahn did a horrible job for a half decade and were not held accountable. 

Loyalty is fine, loyalty without accountability is bad. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 Grandal is a shitty veteran addition?

No.  I was referring to the trash 1 and 2 year deals he has signed.  That said, I don't think we needed to sign a catcher last year.  But it is what it is.  It was Hahn being Hahn. 

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2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Loyalty is fine, as long as a person is doing their job adequately. Where the disconnect was with the fanbase is that KW and Hahn did a horrible job for a half decade and were not held accountable. 

Loyalty is fine, loyalty without accountability is bad. 

Yet here we are in a golden position for the foreseeable future, so who was wrong?

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17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet here we are in a golden position for the foreseeable future, so who was wrong?

I'm not ready to make that proclamation yet. 

Gotta see Moncada bounce back and if Robert can lay off balls first, and gotta see if Cease figures it out or Dunning/Kopech emerges on the pitching side. 

They have some good pieces but they're not there yet. 

If Moncada doesn't return somewhere close to 2019 and Robert has a Byron Buxton like early career, it could derail this before it even really got started. 

I believe in Moncada's talent, but his struggles this year makes me less confident in his 2019 being repeatable than I was in June. I was like 95% confident in June, now I'm about 70% confident. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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