Chisoxfn

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:59 PM) What about Honel and his mid 90's fastball?? It seems like Kris never had that good of a fastball but I could be wrong. No, he always had a nasty knuckle curve. I remember watching that pitch and just going holy crap is that sick. FB wise he rarely cracked the 90's. The big thing is he did have really good control. Since than its gone missing and his velocity went way down. This year he's made a lot of strides. He's kind of on the radar looking in, but still needs to find his confidence and with that his control. If he can do that he may be able to turn back into the prospect a lot of people thought he once was (still I don't know if he has the bevy of pitches to be much more than a back of the rotation guy or a quality reliever).

Most experts said Hansen was set to be a quick mover. Boston is desperate for defensive help so if he can pitch well from here on out in the minors, I could easily see them giving him a shot in September. If he pitches well I could see him on the post-season roster. On a sidenote, a lot of guys sign Major league contracts. It more puts a damper on the options. IIRC they really don't have any or something along those lines (it had some sort of effect on Willy Mo Pena not being able to get send down at least).

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:55 PM) actually, I've never read BA, so I guess thats not what made my opinion. As far as overrating velocity, seems they were spot on with Jenks................ I'm not going to begin to dissect BA and velocity. BA is as good of a minor league publication as there is. They do an awesome job covering the entire minors. However....Jesse Foppert and his 99 MPH heat or Brian Miller and his easy heat (Former guy in the Sox system that topped out at 88-90). None of these guys were even close. Jenks is the real deal...I've been oogling him since he was in the Angels system. Just do a search and look how crazy I went when I found out the Sox signed him. All I can say is maybe Gio adds velocity, maybe he doesn't. I'm not knocking him on a prospect but a lot of people are over-rating him and really under-rating and to a point just blasting Brandon and quite frankly its uncalled for. He's an upper echelon pitching prospect and is what I'd dub a special pitching prospect. He's no Felix Hernandez (whose sick) but he's in that next category (frankly Felix is in a level all by himself).

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:49 PM) s***, I might as well quit FutureSox now after seeing the plethora of White Sox minor league experts here. I'm surprised that you guys know so much about these players considering you've never seen them. Damn you guys are good. Oh, I'm calling Kris Honel tomorrow to schedule an interview with him, can you guys tell me if he is good or bad? Thanks, I'm indebted to every one of you who knows more than me by being an armchair scout. I'm moody today

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:47 PM) just a general question to all posters out there. i dont know much about our minor leaguers, i mean i know pretty much all the names, and i can give you the general stats for most of em, but that dont mean i know much. how many people on here actually have seen these guys pitch/play. i know some have, because they leave near charlotte/bham/etc. but i suspect alot of people on here just make claims about minor league prospects based on like the 2 innings they saw in spring training or something of that sort, and many of their claims are unsubstantiated. for example, i know from my subscription to baseball america what gio throws, what his stats are, what he has done at each stop. but by no means can i sit here and say taht he is better or worse than bmac, since i have never seen gio pitch and couldnt even pick him out of a crowd. my gut would tell me hes worse than brandon just becuase brandon dominated at high A, but then again, brandon was 2 years older when he did that, so i could be wrong. at any rate, i have 0 idea about how much more often gio would pound the strikezone than mccarthy, and quite frankly i dont think many on here do either Personally speaking I've seen most of the guys in the system play on a few ocassions (this is the first year i'm not making a trip out to see the minor leaguers play).

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:47 PM) Low 90's and mids on occasion. And with age and growth I expect it to climb Thats what BA says, but it ain't accurate. BA hypes the hell out of velocity. He rarely dials it up. Maybe he will add some velocity with age, but I don't see where he will get it. He's not what I'd call a projectable player in terms of velocity (ie tall and lanky where you add velocity when your body fills in). As far as Bmac not helping this team, if he isn't traded, he will be the 5th starter next year. Just ask other teams who the best pitching prospect in this org is, they aren't getting all gooey over Gio, its Bmac they want. I'm sure they also want Chris Young too. Why do I rate him #1, because he's the best in my mind. He has a good FB (low 90's and climbing), a plus curve and a plus change. Aside from that he paints the zone and is very smart. He's hit a rough spot in Charlotte, but its mainly because he was rushed and well frankly other reasons that I'm not going to get into.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:43 PM) Gio does dial it up though, BUt his curve his much better than Pedro's breaking balls. Gio doesn't throw that hard. He's not consistently in the mid 90's. He's a low 90's pitcher (this is not a knock). I'm just saying that he doesn't dial it up.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:41 PM) because its not better than his curve... Totally disagree. He has a very good curve, but his changeup is filthy.

QUOTE(danman31 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) Scouts rate velocity way too highly imo. Therefore taller guys will be rated higher because they can dial it up. I've often thought of a Pedro comparison, but his stuff isn't as good in potential. He needs to improve his fastball, but he's definitely a top tier pitching prospect. I'll agree with scouts over-rating fastballs. I care a lot more about control and the quality off their offspeed stuff. Velocity means you can get away with more, but if you can't throw strikes and keep hitters off balance (with good off-speed pitches) your gonna struggle. Gio is a very good prospect too, if he dominates WS like he did Kanny you'll me start talking about backing him more. Only thing that really worries me with him is durability. Of course I don't rate him anywhere close to Bmac. I think Bmac is bar none the best pitcher in the system.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:37 PM) Gio reminds me of a Left handed Pedro Martinez.. No one is giving him a fair shot due to his size.. I recall Rauch was one of the top prospects in MLB , Why cause of his size. In reality he had medicore to below average stuff. McCarthy has size, and Gio doesnt, again people tend to go with the bigger athlete that they tend to think is better, which in mnay cases they are dead wrong. Pedro just a great example, another is a guy that goes by Maddux. Pre-surgery Rauch looked like he was going to be amazing. Problem is he never regained his stuff after hurting his labrum. Pedro is nothing like Gio. Pedro is a power pitcher, Gio isn't.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:38 PM) May be something insignificant, but when Ozzie came out to get the ball from Marte, there was no usual clap or slap on the butt from Ozzie. Just grabbed the ball. Thats probably cause he was ticked at Damaso, but who knows.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:29 PM) Are you crazy?? Rowand is not the 3rd best defensive CF in the league. I'd take Griffey, Beltran, Jones, Wells, Hunter, Kotsay, Edmonds, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Cameron before I sniff Rowand. And that's just guys at CF. Cameron is the one guy I forgot. He's the one player that may go ahead along with Torri and Andruw. And your wrong on the others. Griffey ain't even close, Beltran is solid (way over-rated though), Wells is meh, Kotsay/Edmonds/Reed are all very similar to Rowand (I'd put Reed a class below right now).

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:32 PM) Which is the point. We already know what Burnett is. Plus he still has room for improvement. I would trade Gio right away too, but BMac is in demand so I say out with his ass. I'm trying to win a WS and Burnett betters my chances of that happening. No, your telling me that Gio is better than Bmac right now. Thats completely wrong. Gio has been pitching very well, but he has a heck of a lot more weaknesses than Brandon (part of it is deservingly so, less experience, etc). However Brandon is a very very poised young pitcher who flat out has dominated every level he's been in. Now he has struggled in Charlotte this year, but there are reasons to that and he's getting into a groove these past couple starts. He's still k'ing guys left and right and quite frankly he was rushed into Charlotte. Turns out that his awesome spring training was actually bad for him because instead of going back to Bham (which he could of used) he went straight to Charlotte (so he has had to learn on the fly in a sense). He'll pitch his ass off down the stretch...mark my words. And he has a plus changeup too, people are starting to say its better than his curve. The Sox just haven't used it much this year for some reason.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:25 PM) Perhaps Eyre comes with Omar while Marte and BMac go for Burnett/Wagner... Thats entirely possible. I do think that Kenny is looking to potentially upgrade offensively. You also know that Kenny is being careful about who he's targeting. He's being very open with Ozzie and is asking Ozzie's opinion on guys cause they know they don't want to mess with the club too much (it would be assinine to blow apart the team with the best record in baseball...ie giving up a bunch of major leaguers in trades). Omar can slide in, with Willie getting demoted or moved somewhere else. Juan goes to the bench. The move makes sense. You lose no key contributors and get a guy that the Sox are very familiar with (both Kenny and Ozzie) and a guy that would be very happy playing in Chicago. He is a good defensive player (fits a need cause I refuse to make any deals that downgrade the club defensively), he's a good small ball player, and he's a major upgrade than the player thats currently starting there. Billy Wagner replacing Marte (would Marte and a prospect interest the Phills) it may just. It seems it would take Burnett, but who knows. Regardless I could see Marte going because Ozzie appears very frustrated by his lack of consistency and strikes. Sox are gonna add a starter or reliever and potentially an infielder. Aside from that I don't see anything (No outfielders or DH's or 1st baseman). If they deal Marte in a trade for a starter, than you'll see 3 new players...a starter, a reliever, and maybe an infielder.

QUOTE(danman31 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:24 PM) Everyone loves Gio for god knows whatever reason. Don't get me wrong, he's a solid prospect, but he can only hope to be the kind of prospect Brandon is. People see Gio's sweet curve in that draft video and great numbers in Kanny and they think he's the new hotness. Hello! Brandon was better in Winston-Salem than Gio was in Kanny. Brandon led all of the minor in strikeouts and had unreal control and people are saying Gio is the better stuff pitcher and attacks the zone more. Sorry, this was an off topic post but people need to lay the f*** off Brandon. Any minor league expert would tell you Brandon wasn't ready when he was called up. The Sox didn't have anything better after the 2004 debacle.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:21 PM) Gio has more pitches. Gio's pitches dance more than BMac. Bmac has a suspect change. Gio is left-handed. You could take BMac and I'll take Gio and I'd be willing to bet my team wins. I hate being blunt, but Gio isn't better. Brandon is a special pitcher. He hammers the zone, has great control, and throws a plus curveball and changeup. He hasn't thrown the changeup much this year, but last I looked he's not the one calling the pitches and rookie pitchers aren't entitled to shake off pitches (its shunned upon in baseball). Gio has a great curveball, everything else is mediocre. He also throws a FB and changeup. The changeup is a solid pitch. But he is nowhere near where Bmac is. Thankfully Kenny seems to understand Brandon is a special kid.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:20 PM) If Billy Wagner proves to be the difference maker in the WS you can bet your last dollar he will NOT be a rent-a-player for the WSox. He will be here to stay. This move can not only solidify the pen for this year's run, but with the most important position players expected back in 2006 it sets us up to win it next year as well. That's the kind of move you overpay for & make no mistake about it BMac + Marte is overpaying. But that's the way it works this time of the year. You acquire Wagner not only to help yourself but to play keep away from others. I don't care how electric Burnett's stuff is. If he's proven to be wild & inconsistent after over 100 starts under his belt there isn't much hope for improvement. If the Sox win the WS, money won't be a factor. They will keep anyone they feel will make this team likely to repeat the following year. Hell, if they go deep, they will spend a whole lot of coin. Only guys I see as potentially being gone are Thomas/Everett/Konerko. Unless Thomas comes on really strong later this year he's gone as is Everett. Konerko is interesting. However, if the Sox lose them, they will spend money to fill these spots, imo.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:22 PM) So you're saying he's a druggy? No, it was an OTC supplement of some sort.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:21 PM) Would you be willing to give BMac + another prospect or BMac + Marte for Vizquel? No.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:19 PM) Maybe I'm just not understanding the original post, but he said that Vizquel is gonna be traded to the White Sox? Or that he is just on the block and the Sox are interested? Nothing official or anything. Simply said he has heard that Vizquel may end up in Chicago. Thats big to me because for the most part its been indicated that Omar isn't on the trade block. All I'm saying is that I'm excited as hell that I hear his name come up as potentially available cause he makes so much sense. I can't speak enough about how big of a pickup this would be. People can talk about his contract being a little long, but he's still producing now and whose to say he won't for the remainder. Regardless, there are plenty of worse contracts out there, and well frankl, I don't care about him being over the hill the last year of his deal, cause he's the type of guy that makes the Sox a more likely WS candidate and thats what its all about. Gio/Valido for Omar and I'll do it. I'd be more thrilled if it took less, but I'll give up some of the best prospects in the org for him.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:18 PM) Who's valido? The clubs top SS prospect. He's playing in High A Ball Winston Salem. Very good defensively, doesn't project to hit for tons of power, but is a very smart/headsy player and is looking like he may project into a decent avg guy. Could turn into a leadoff/2 hole hitter. Major league ready defensively.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:18 PM) Vernon Wells? Beltran? Not even close defensively. Beltran is pretty good, but not as good as Rowand. Vernon has the tools, but is lazy defensively. Rowand is that good, no joke. He gets as good of jumps as anyone in baseball and flat saves runs. He ocassionally will throw the ball to the wrong guy (ever OFer does) but he's flat out great out there.

When it comes to Reynolds, I'll admit, sometimes he says some dumb things. But I know when you talk sports everyone says dumb stuff. Lord knows I've been wrong on many ocassions on this site. Thats part of being an analyst. He's far from great, but at the same time they have a bias towards the Yanks and BoSox. Trust me, if the White Sox were making the playoffs year in/year out or defending world series champs, we'd see that bias too. Its like how we would always write off the Twins thinking the Sox were the better team. Turns out the Twins were really good and proven. Anyway just get Omar...I want him so badly. He makes this team so so much better.

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:13 PM) I'd have no problem seeing Vizquel come over to the Sox. That's a move I see making a lot of sense. I'm not too excited about the Burnett deal. SS would be a great place for the Sox to upgrade. The pen wouldn't be a bad place either. Put it this way...out of everyone in baseball, if I were GM, Vizquel is the one guy I'd over pay for. I'm talking about Valido and Gio for s*** sakes. He makes the every day lineup so much better and the move doubles by giving the Sox more depth at 3rd base, which is something they need. In a sense, acquiring Vizquel is almost like acquiring to players. You acquire a starting shortstop (Omar) and you acquire an ultimate utility guy (Uribe being allowed to move to this role). Plus he fits right into the style Ozzie wants and I think he'll mesh in great with the clubhouse. The next guy I'd overpay for is Brad Lidge (cause you'd have him for a while). I'd be giggling like a little girl if the Sox get Omar.

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Jul 24, 2005 -> 03:10 PM) ^Best thing about it.^ Thats why I'm using it. I'm not privy to change, but this one has cool colors while everything has stays the same.