White Sox looking into bullpen arms

[The Sir]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-bud-norris-repeatedly-harassing-cardinals-rookie-manager-doesnt-seem-care-much-234600367.html

Apparently you also missed the "hazing" incident with Jordan Hicks?

My point was that, while objectively Myers has committed the worst act, for sure...that Bud Norris has a list of incidents and run-ins a mile long on his resume.

 

That anyone would actually WANT him on the White Sox after all that was pretty shocking, when there are MANY MANY other relief pitchers to choose from, and MANY MANY in our own organization.   Not to mention we've already added Colome and Herrera just this off-season, which is more than 50% of MLB teams are spending on their pens (collectively).

 

 

I missed the Jordan Hicks “hazing” incident because it consisted of an older player telling a younger player with punctuality issues to be on time. Oh, it’s humiliating? Then make it stop by being on fucking time. It’s ridiculous how soft we’re getting. I read your article thinking he beat this kid, or at least duct-taped him to something. But no, he chided him for tardiness. “Hazing” in 2019. Unbelievable.

Today I learned that I haze my subordinates constantly by having standards and expecting them to meet those standards. What a sonuvab**** I am.

So no, he still doesn’t compete with Brett “Headshot” Myers. Sorry. Toughen up, will ya?

And from a baseball perspective, no, I don’t want him. Bullpens are the last thing to focus on, and so many relievers are flashes in the pan. Until our rotation and lineup are dynamite, the pen is an afterthought. Don’t waste money on old journeymen like Bud Norris. Has nothing to do with his viewpoints.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, The Sir said:

I missed the Jordan Hicks “hazing” incident because it consisted of an older player telling a younger player with punctuality issues to be on time. Oh, it’s humiliating? Then make it stop by being on fucking time. It’s ridiculous how soft we’re getting. I read your article thinking he beat this kid, or at least duct-taped him to something. But no, he chided him for tardiness. “Hazing” in 2019. Unbelievable.

Today I learned that I haze my subordinates constantly by having standards and expecting them to meet those standards. What a sonuvab**** I am.

So no, he still doesn’t compete with Brett “Headshot” Myers. Sorry. Toughen up, will ya?

And from a baseball perspective, no, I don’t want him. Bullpens are the last thing to focus on, and so many relievers are flashes in the pan. Until our rotation and lineup are dynamite, the pen is an afterthought. Don’t waste money on old journeymen like Bud Norris. Has nothing to do with his viewpoints.

The 33-year-old Norris has been mercilessly riding 21-year old rookie Jordan Hicks since spring training, reminding him to be at meetings on time and publicly calling him out when he is lagging in any of the details a visitor might not notice, but other players do.

 

Except I’m not sure what “mercilessly riding” means and Saxon doesn’t describe it. He also uses the term “badgering” and talks about teaching young players in “the harshest way possible” and doesn’t elaborate there either. Matheny is quoted as saying that he does not think Hicks much cares for the treatment, but again, no suggestion of what the treatment is, exactly, that he does not care for and there is no suggestion that Matheny has any sympathy for Hicks’ concerns.

And Hicks doesn’t seem too cool with it all, it should be noted:

Hicks, the hardest throwing right-handed pitcher in baseball, isn’t a fan of the treatment. Asked if he thinks it will one day pay dividends in his career, he said, “I have no idea. No comment.”

That’s not a passage describing someone responding well to thoughtful mentorship or even tough love. That’s the description of someone who thinks Norris is being a jackass but is smart enough not to give quotes to a reporter about it lest he catch even more flak.

Matheny sees Norris’ actions as an effort to carry on the dying tradition of teaching younger players in the harshest possible ways. Matheny himself faced that on the Milwaukee Brewers when he broke in as a young catcher 24 years ago.

“I think the game has progressively gotten a little softer,” Matheny said. “Man, it had some teeth not that long ago.”

Teeth. Badgering. Merciless. Harshest way possible. All this in service of a veteran — a veteran who is on record with some pretty damn intemperate comments when it comes to respecting his fellow ballplayers — who seems to be making one of the organization’s brightest young stars miserable.

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/07/11/bud-norris-is-mercilessly-riding-and-badgering-cardinals-pitcher-jordan-hicks/

[Y2Jimmy0]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I just don’t get how we can add any more arms.  The 40 man is full and we should at least give Hamilton a shot next year.  If guys want to take minor league deals, then by all means go nuts.

Agree with this 100%. There's no need to add anymore relievers. They already have Colome, Herrera, Jones, and Hamilton as near roster locks from the RH side. On the left side, Fry, Frare and Bummer. This doesn't even take into account: Minaya, Covey, Fulmer, Burr, Vieira, or Randall Delgado. They also have Burdi and Thompson who are really close to the majors and guys like Tyler Johnson, Medeiros and Schryver who really don't need a ton of minor league time. I'd be pretty surprised if they signed anymore relievers, especially to major league deals. 

[The Sir]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The 33-year-old Norris has been mercilessly riding 21-year old rookie Jordan Hicks since spring training, reminding him to be at meetings on time and publicly calling him out when he is lagging in any of the details a visitor might not notice, but other players do.

 

Except I’m not sure what “mercilessly riding” means and Saxon doesn’t describe it. He also uses the term “badgering” and talks about teaching young players in “the harshest way possible” and doesn’t elaborate there either. Matheny is quoted as saying that he does not think Hicks much cares for the treatment, but again, no suggestion of what the treatment is, exactly, that he does not care for and there is no suggestion that Matheny has any sympathy for Hicks’ concerns.

And Hicks doesn’t seem too cool with it all, it should be noted:

Hicks, the hardest throwing right-handed pitcher in baseball, isn’t a fan of the treatment. Asked if he thinks it will one day pay dividends in his career, he said, “I have no idea. No comment.”

That’s not a passage describing someone responding well to thoughtful mentorship or even tough love. That’s the description of someone who thinks Norris is being a jackass but is smart enough not to give quotes to a reporter about it lest he catch even more flak.

Matheny sees Norris’ actions as an effort to carry on the dying tradition of teaching younger players in the harshest possible ways. Matheny himself faced that on the Milwaukee Brewers when he broke in as a young catcher 24 years ago.

“I think the game has progressively gotten a little softer,” Matheny said. “Man, it had some teeth not that long ago.”

Teeth. Badgering. Merciless. Harshest way possible. All this in service of a veteran — a veteran who is on record with some pretty damn intemperate comments when it comes to respecting his fellow ballplayers — who seems to be making one of the organization’s brightest young stars miserable.

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/07/11/bud-norris-is-mercilessly-riding-and-badgering-cardinals-pitcher-jordan-hicks/

Geez. Each article you've cited pretty much encapsulates why journalists in this country are less popular than people who let their dogs shit in their neighbors' yards.

First, one word in that choppy procession of scary sounding words about Norris' treatment of Hicks actually comes a participant in the events. "Teeth", and it's not even in context. Everything else is the panicky NBC guy quoting words put in (not quoted) by the Athletic writer. Calcaterra assumes that "I have no idea. No comment." shows Hicks thinks Norris "is being a jackass but is smart enough not to give quotes to a reporter about it lest he catch even more flak." Which is total speculation. I want reporters to tell me facts, not what they think, because, frankly, I don't think reporters are all that smart.

Second, I don't really care if Hicks likes it or not. Don't want tough love? Be on time. The idea that mercilessly maintaining a certain standard among your employees is hazing is pathetic. By that measure, I haze my employees constantly. For example, I was talking to a large group of my subordinates the other day after some training, and one of them is sitting there playing on her phone, like I'm some nobody. I called her out by name and said, "Am I boring you?" I told her direct supervisor in privacy afterward that she was to be counseled in writing. Was that merciless? Was that badgering? Was that the harshest way possible? I don't know. I don't care. Hopefully, at this point, this particular employee knows that we aren't fucking around here. Maybe she'll learn; if not, I'll send her ass home. If she doesn't want this sort of attention, she should do the right thing. I'm sorry some people have this wimpy, soft conception of leadership in this country, but that's what it takes to maintain good order and discipline.

Third, "pretty damn intemperate comments"? Give me a break. He points out that the globalization of baseball has brought different cultures into a sort of conflict. He sees baseball as an American game (breaking news: it is), and he wants to keep that American influence. He doesn't say this in an insulting way (unless, of course, you're the sort that's offended because someone tells you to be on time). He even says that he and the union welcome these outside influences! Only in 2019 America is the idea that cultures clash something controversial. Guess what? Cultures clash when they meet. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have phrases like "culture shock", we wouldn't find anything of interest in dozens upon dozens of movies, such as A Bronx Tale, Coming to America, and the, at this point, too many Crocodile Dundee movies, and I wouldn't have the label of war veteran, with several friends laying dead because of those wars.

Is it silly to whine about this undeniable, never-ending conflict in the context of a game, which is supposed to be fun? Maybe so. But if that's the way Bud Norris feels, that's the way he feels. And it is actually acceptable to defend the American nature of things, and to want that nature maintained into the future. I've learned by this point that Craig Calcaterra is a moron, and the insidious racist undertones that he inserts in the paragraph after quoting Norris are his creation, not Norris'. 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Geez. Each article you've cited pretty much encapsulates why journalists in this country are less popular than people who let their dogs shit in their neighbors' yards.

First, one word in that choppy procession of scary sounding words about Norris' treatment of Hicks actually comes a participant in the events. "Teeth", and it's not even in context. Everything else is the panicky NBC guy quoting words put in (not quoted) by the Athletic writer. Calcaterra assumes that "I have no idea. No comment." shows Hicks thinks Norris "is being a jackass but is smart enough not to give quotes to a reporter about it lest he catch even more flak." Which is total speculation. I want reporters to tell me facts, not what they think, because, frankly, I don't think reporters are all that smart.

Second, I don't really care if Hicks likes it or not. Don't want tough love? Be on time. The idea that mercilessly maintaining a certain standard among your employees is hazing is pathetic. By that measure, I haze my employees constantly. For example, I was talking to a large group of my subordinates the other day after some training, and one of them is sitting there playing on her phone, like I'm some nobody. I called her out by name and said, "Am I boring you?" I told her direct supervisor in privacy afterward that she was to be counseled in writing. Was that merciless? Was that badgering? Was that the harshest way possible? I don't know. I don't care. Hopefully, at this point, this particular employee knows that we aren't fucking around here. Maybe she'll learn; if not, I'll send her ass home. If she doesn't want this sort of attention, she should do the right thing. I'm sorry some people have this wimpy, soft conception of leadership in this country, but that's what it takes to maintain good order and discipline.

Third, "pretty damn intemperate comments"? Give me a break. He points out that the globalization of baseball has brought different cultures into a sort of conflict. He sees baseball as an American game (breaking news: it is), and he wants to keep that American influence. He doesn't say this in an insulting way (unless, of course, you're the sort that's offended because someone tells you to be on time). He even says that he and the union welcome these outside influences! Only in 2019 America is the idea that cultures clash something controversial. Guess what? Cultures clash when they meet. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have phrases like "culture shock", we wouldn't find anything of interest in dozens upon dozens of movies, such as A Bronx Tale, Coming to America, and the, at this point, too many Crocodile Dundee movies, and I wouldn't have the label of war veteran, with several friends laying dead because of those wars.

Is it silly to whine about this undeniable, never-ending conflict in the context of a game, which is supposed to be fun? Maybe so. But if that's the way Bud Norris feels, that's the way he feels. And it is actually acceptable to defend the American nature of things, and to want that nature maintained into the future. I've learned by this point that Craig Calcaterra is a moron, and the insidious racist undertones that he inserts in the paragraph after quoting Norris are his creation, not Norris'. 

The problem is that the days of “old school” guys like Matheny, Scioscia, Girardi, Showalter and Ausmus are fading, if not entirely gone.

It’s almost guaranteed with our offseason acquisition strategy that there will be no “tough love” for Machado’s Muchachos, either.  Just like the NBA, these superstar players will eventually get coaches and GM’s fired.  Look at the Jimmy Butler saga, for example.

The Cardinals, in this case, decided that Morris and Matheny weren’t ultimately worth the trouble to defend.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Agree with this 100%. There's no need to add anymore relievers. They already have Colome, Herrera, Jones, and Hamilton as near roster locks from the RH side. On the left side, Fry, Frare and Bummer. This doesn't even take into account: Minaya, Covey, Fulmer, Burr, Vieira, or Randall Delgado. They also have Burdi and Thompson who are really close to the majors and guys like Tyler Johnson, Medeiros and Schryver who really don't need a ton of minor league time. I'd be pretty surprised if they signed anymore relievers, especially to major league deals. 

Plus Ruiz, Stephens and Banuelos as well.  

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

 

[Whisox05]

 

[smellysox]

15 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

 

I know, I saw that too. Head scratcher?!  Unless they plan on trading some relief away.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, smellysox said:

I know, I saw that too. Head scratcher?!  Unless they plan on trading some relief away.

Sign a lefty and trade Jace

[bmags]

I would imagine this is less sox looking for help and more keeping up with some available guys and that gets forwarded through as "interest" for a guy like heyman.

[HOFHurt35]

Unless we're looking to contend, I think our bullpen is fine as is with two veterans and allow the other kids to settle in to find their place. 

Almost lost Zach Thompson to rule 5, that's an example.   Need to start giving some of these young power arms an extended look. 

 

 

[GreenSox]

6 hours ago, fathom said:

Sign a lefty and trade Jace

For what purpose?  The 40 man is replete with relievers.
On the subject, I'd consider starting Jace, although I suppose injuries and workload could be a concern.

Edited January 30, 2019 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

For what purpose?  The 40 man is replete with relievers.
On the subject, I'd consider starting Jace, although I suppose injuries and workload could be a concern.

Have you seen the combined start totals for MLB pitchers with multiple TJ surgeries?   Not good.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

For what purpose?  The 40 man is replete with relievers.
On the subject, I'd consider starting Jace, although I suppose injuries and workload could be a concern.

Turn the kid with not 1, but 2 TJ surgery's into a starter for a pitcher who hasn't topped 52 IP in a season since at least 2014?

Yikes.

[Quin]

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

For what purpose?  The 40 man is replete with relievers.
On the subject, I'd consider starting Jace, although I suppose injuries and workload could be a concern.

[BlackSox13]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Have you seen the combined start totals for MLB pitchers with multiple TJ surgeries?   Not good.

Thats worse than me moving Joc to RF without looking to see if he's played RF before.

[GreenSox]

Well I did say injuries would be a concern.  Regardless, the man has multiple pitches and should be a really versatile, cost controlled guy in the pen.

And Eovaldi had TJ x2.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Well I did say injuries would be a concern.  Regardless, the man has multiple pitches and should be a really versatile, cost controlled guy in the pen.

And Eovaldi had TJ x2.

Eovaldi didn't spend 5 years as a short reliever either.